AMA: Vertrouwen opbouwen als HR-professional met dr. Keri Ohlrich

[00:00:00] David: It's got to get us going. Well, welcome everyone. Uh, this is our first ever ask me anything session. We're hoping to see these grow, you know, become a valuable sort of way for our members to engage with the experts who contribute to people managing people. So for those of you who don't know, my name is David Rice.

I'm the senior editor of People Managing People, and I'll be your host of sorts for the day. Um, so today's session, we're going to focus on building trust as an HR professional, and we'll be speaking with Dr. Carrie Ulrich, who you've already met. Met in the pre chat. So we'll get started in just a sec. Uh, in the meantime, everybody kind of share where you're joining from today in the chat.

I'm definitely curious about that, but we'll do a couple of housekeeping items real quick. So this session is being recorded and we may use clips from it [00:01:00] on our website. Um, so you can keep your camera on or you can turn it off. It's up to you. However, you're comfortable. Um, I've kept your microphones off for now, but, uh, you can, uh, Also, like, just pop on if you want to ask a question.

You can ask the question. It doesn't have to be me. Um, the rules are very simple, though. If you want to post a question in the Q& A section, uh, I'll get Kerry to answer it, as we'll do as many as we can do in an hour. So, um, feel free to just get started whenever on that, and also feel free to have a side conversation in the chat.

There's no real strict rules about the chat. Um, And if you're not a PMP member or people managing people, sorry, I'm calling it by its internal name. We, because we were, you know, we may have a few guests here today. So if that's you, welcome. Uh, this is the first in a series of monthly sessions with HR experts that we want to hold for our community members.

And if you want to learn more about the community, uh, about membership and what it entails, uh, head on over to peoplemanagingpeople. com forward slash membership and check that [00:02:00] out. Um, okay. Carrie, why don't we kick it off? Tell us a little bit about yourself so as to get us rolling.

[00:02:08] Keri: I like that. This is the first one starting off with fentanyl and alcohol.

Like, I don't know. I just feel like that when you're doing the template for the next ones, make sure it's like inappropriate discussion in the beginning and then you just, I'm just saying it's a good, it's good to do, or at least make sure Robin starts the call immediately. So Robin, you have to be on every single one.

Um, so hi Carrie. I'm calling from Southern I'm calling in from Southern California. Sorry, I have this wackadoodle background. I was telling them earlier that my parents have been here for almost four weeks and they've taken over my office. So they are moving here from the Midwest. And I have been in this little tiny space in the bedroom the entire time instead of my office.

So they're staying in the office. So, um, I get like really [00:03:00] good daughter, Browning points like for this whole month. Um, but I have a long career in HR startup. Didn't think I was going to be in HR startup in big corporations in the Midwest and Chicago and Milwaukee. Like I mentioned, Miller brewing started in, um, the strategic side of performance management, uh, talent planning, things like that.

And then also moved into the generalist side, ran employer relations. We had about 50, 000 associates out a day. So we had an employee relations center of all the wonderful stories that would happen with temporaries who were out. And then that was all in the Midwest. And then wrote a book called the way of the HR warrior, because I.

Felt there was such a negative stereotype about HR and really wanted people to, it's such an important profession. And so how could we help it? So instead of complaining about it, Monica and I wrote a book to try and help it because I don't like to just sit and complain. I want to do something. So we [00:04:00] wrote that.

And then I moved out here to Southern California and, uh, never thought I'd live out here. We moved out here and it's beautiful and I'll never leave. And then it's so happened. My coworker who I worked with, um, for a few years moved out to California. And we always talked about, you know, maybe we should start our own business.

And I'm like, I can't do that. My husband's an artist. He's the one who has like the flexibility. I don't. And, uh, lo and behold, we did. And this month will be. Yeah. No, April will be seven years and considering that 70 percent of the businesses fail in seven years, um, that like, it's a very depressing number.

Uh, every year we, we make it. I am pretty excited. So we love to help HR and our clients and we do a lot of fun stuff and I get to be on people managing people board and it's all great. So, but have tons of stories and really like still I'm in the weeds of HR. I have clients where we're like the fractional HR person.

So get the call. Like we [00:05:00] get to do like, Oh, what are we going to do with leaders? And then the next call is, um, as you well know, uh, so someone might not pass their background check. I think there's an arrest warrant out for this person. So that's like the wonderful world of HR, right? Like who's going to be the next CEO.

And you're like, have to be so. Super smart and insane, you know, and like insightful and then like someone's going to get arrested. You're like, Oh, okay. So all in the same day. Yeah. So that's the wonderful world of HR, which you all know. All

[00:05:32] David: right. Well, again, everybody, if you want to ask a question directly, just hit the little hand raise emoji and we'll.

Bring you on. Otherwise, pop it in the chat. But I wanted to get us started. Uh, you mentioned there, you know, some, some wild stories. So do you have any horror stories of, you know, shady HR practices you've seen out in the wild throughout your career? Sort of a what not to do when it comes to building trust?

[00:05:55] Keri: Well, they're okay. So there are wild stories, so I [00:06:00] have to, we have to really be specific. There's wild, wonderful employee stories, but we won't talk about those, but maybe we can have a bonus one if you want to. There's the worst HR practices are when there's not an HR person there. Right. So that's like, we don't pay people the right way.

We have locked them in closets. That honestly has happened in a firm in Mexico. They thought it was appropriate to do. Um, so you have that. So the real shady ones are when someone's not, there's not an HR person there. I think what happens with HR, like the shady HR practice for HR is when, um, HR really just doesn't give a shit.

And so when the company has then Bad intentions. The HR person's like, well, okay, they keep doing it and they don't like fight for it or they don't do anything about it. So I think that's kind of where that shady part comes in. Right. Because the HR person is quite [00:07:00] complicit in this crap that companies do.

Now I say that, and sometimes you really want to fight it and you can, and the company's bad and you got to figure out how to extricate yourself. Um, but yeah, that's the shady. That's the shady part. If there's an actual HR person there. But left to their own devices. Some companies are really naughty, really naughty.

Being in California, like people like, oh, it's so regulated and stuff. It's it's because all these companies have done really naughty things and California actually says you probably shouldn't do that. Like, you should give people water when they're working in 90 degree heat. Other states don't believe that it should happen.

And they don't give water. Like, I can't, I make this, like, do you know what I mean, the people are like, well, you should give them water. It's like, they have to be mandated to give them water and they still don't. In a state like Florida, um, where you don't have to give them, it's could be 120 degrees and you don't have to give them water and the people will then do that.

So that's what's [00:08:00] so interesting about HR. You think it's so regulated, but it's because people are doing some really not so nice things to other people. And so the state comes in and says, no, you can't fire a pregnant woman. Yeah. So.

[00:08:16] David: All right. Well, I'm going to ask a question, uh, for a friend who couldn't make it today.

Uh, so she wanted me to ask, there's been a waves of layoffs at my organization and I think my team is scared of HR now. How can I get people to trust me again when they think any meeting with me might be me letting them go?

[00:08:35] Keri: Isn't that sad? And I think there's, first of all, it's like a real fear. Right?

Because if you're keep doing layoffs and layoffs and layoffs, and the HR person is always in there, it's, it's, it's real. So as an HR person, there's a couple things. 1, I've always made sure that it's not the HR person doing the layoff. Like, we might be there. And I know this sounds kind of. Um, it sounds [00:09:00] a little like, well, that's the way it should be, but there's a lot of companies who they will abdicate the managers, abdicate all responsibility to HR, especially during layoffs.

They're like, wow, that's really, you should probably do the whole thing. And they're not even in the meeting. And so that hurts HR so much because frankly, we don't have the power to make the decision on who's getting laid off. Right? So I think there's this, there's this, um, misnomer that people think that HR is like identifying all the people.

We don't, the business does. We just have to do all the logistics of getting it done. And so if HR is the only person in the meeting or leading the meeting, then people are then believing that it's always HR doing it and we're the ones responsible for it. And if you have a meeting with HR, it's really scary.

So fight for manager needs to lead it needs to be in it and HR just can't do [00:10:00] it. And it's hard because managers, first of all, who wants to lay someone off only like an antisocial psycho, but, but most people like 99. 9 percent of the people do not want to do it. So if you could wiggle out of it as a manager, like I get it, you're like, well, you're really good at it.

You should do it. Like. Get why you try to get out of it. Um, but as H. R. We can't let them get out of it. It's their role. There are people managers. That's what they have to do. And so the manager needs to be there. They need to leave the meeting. H. R. is there to support it. And, um, so that's the meeting, but then also, if the employees never know you.

And they only see you when you're laying them off. Well then come on now, like, of course, they're going to be afraid of you. If the only time you talk to employees is to give them bad news or to be an asshole. Well, then they're going to think you are. I mean, so as HR, how do you keep getting out there and talking to people and just presenting and not presenting bad news, but you kind [00:11:00] of be out there.

So then when you do have a hit and it's a layoff, they're like, yeah, but I've seen Carrie like a hundred times. And I know that's only one part of her job. Absolutely.

[00:11:12] David: Sticking with sort of that layoff theme, you know, recently we've seen these videos where folks like film themselves being let go. Yes. He knows.

And it generates like a ton of conversation around layoffs, the right way to do it, the wrong way to deal with people. I'm curious what you think about this sort of this becoming a trend and some of the things you've seen in these videos, both from the employees and the companies.

[00:11:34] Keri: Um, well, first I go to this, like, Oh, you have to get, uh, you know, appropriate, you know, acceptance to record someone.

So like stop recording. That's like my fear of like, as a

[00:11:46] David: reporter, that was my first thought.

[00:11:49] Keri: You're like, I'm pretty sure that's a state where you can't do that without getting a two party approval. But anyway, so besides the logistics of that, um, part of me [00:12:00] kind of, I don't know if I like it, but it's kinda, it keeps some accountability.

So I kind of like, like, if you're going to act like a fool, Someone's going to record you. Like there's a part of me that I'm like, if you're going to act like an asshole, like at least you're recorded. And it shows like that one. I can't remember which one it was, David, but it was the CEO who'd like started to cry or something ridiculous.

And you're just like, Oh my God, you need to stop. So there's a part of me that kind of likes that there's some accountability and we're having a better conversation about it. Um, but at the same time, like I, I want them to be present and not like recording their layoff and then putting it out there. And that's just, that's to me, like, that just keeps ripping off the scab for someone.

And like, how do you move past that? If you keep watching yourself on the video or people keep commenting on your video and I don't know. So I do like the accountability that people need to act better, um, when they do layoffs. So I do appreciate that perspective because some people don't really do a good job and they don't prepare [00:13:00] and they don't think of what it's like to be on the other side of it.

[00:13:07] David: Are your, uh, we got a Michael, you raised your hand. Go ahead. Yeah. I'm

[00:13:13] Keri: just, just curious, like to build on that, on that trend. I think it's really interesting to see all these kinds of come to light. because people are filming them and releasing them probably without permission from the company. I guess just to build on that, like, is it, do you consider that it's a good thing?

Because otherwise, you know, this might continue to happen behind closed doors when people don't, you know, people are not seeing it. And now that it's come to light, is it, is it going to force change among. Like in the HR space, you know, will this kind of maybe get looked into or will it force people to rethink the way that they approach this?

Well, it's interesting. I would like, will it force change that I'm not sure, do you know what I mean? [00:14:00] Because people, you always hope that maybe a bad video, like it was like, Oh man, you don't want to be like that. Um, Yeah. But does it really force change sometimes that really, so that I was like concerns me, but I do think the thought that you could be recorded that you, um, could go, Oh, that is going to make us look really bad.

Um, hopefully that makes them step up, right? Because it is about, it really sucks to be laid off. Like I've been laid off, so I've been on both sides of it. It sucks. And, but how can you do it with some amount of dignity and respect? And you can, it takes time though. It takes time. You have to do talking points.

You've got to train your managers. You have to really think through it. You have to have a super incredibly logistically, beautiful communication plan of, I talked to Michael first, then I talked to Robin, then I talked to Karen, like it all has to be choreographed. Okay. And then it always [00:15:00] goes off. Like someone goes on vacation or someone calls him sick and you're like, now you gotta like find them.

You got like, it's really tough. It's a lot of work to do it the right way and to do it with respect. But, um, but yeah, it's just, I think the videos. They can only help, um, people step up and, and maybe do the right thing. But do I expect a ton of change from it? No, because most of the, uh, old farts who are working, myself included, aren't even on TikTok and have no idea that like there's videos out there.

So that's part of the problem. They won't even know.

[00:15:42] David: Um, it is one of the questions I wanted to ask you was, you know, uh, you used the word HR Warrior. So what is an HR warrior in your mind?

[00:15:52] Keri: For me, it's someone who, it's almost like, um, someone who says, Oh, you're not [00:16:00] typical HR. In fact, my business partner just got that the other day that she was talking to someone, they're like, you're not like typical HR.

And she's like, yeah, damn straight. I'm not. And so, and, uh, but A warrior is someone I think that's going to surprise you that you're like, you know what? I really want this person on my team and I really want to partner with, I really want to partner with this person. Like my life is better because.

Michelle is there or because David's there like I I can run my business better and I sleep better at night knowing That um, I have this partner That's like a true business partner and that's to me as an hr warrior that they can't really do without you That you've made a significant impact

[00:16:51] David: one of the things, uh, I was thinking about the other day and this actually came after a conversation that you and I had but Uh, you know, we hear a lot of corporate jargon all the time. It's [00:17:00] sort of like ever present no matter where you work I think for us And I think there's a sense now growing, I think maybe with a little bit more with the younger generations, especially, but that it's, it's a lot of BS, right?

Like I saw one study that said it makes people view bosses as less trustworthy. So for HR, do you think it's even more important to cut out sort of the jargon and speak plainly with people on terms that make sense to them if you're going to build trust?

[00:17:24] Keri: Oh my God, yeah. Like you have to speak in other people, like in a language that people understand.

And so I think that. It comes relatively easy for me to do that. I, and, but there's a downside, right? Because then I do swear Gail loves that, but like, but you know what I mean? But I do. And I said, like in a meeting the other day, I said, and it, like, it was like 300 people on the call and I'm like, well, don't be a pain in the took us, and they're like, I think that's the first time anyone said took us and this like entire meeting.

And I was like, Okay. It was just took us like, I didn't say like major [00:18:00] swear words, you know, but so I think it, it does bond you because especially in HR people think you're kind of removed, not removed, not you're, you're in a bubble a little bit and they think you're like a cop already. Right. So you're already the police.

You're already kind of one removed. And so they already kind of see you with suspicion a little bit. And so you're going to go like tell on me or you're a snitch or something like that. Aren't you the cops? Yeah. So I just saw that one pop up Robin, but like. We're not the cops. Like if you want to be a cop, go be a cop, but you're not like the colleague.

I don't really want to bust you for your drinking or something. Do you know what I mean? Like, I really don't. Like, if you want to talk about it, then talk about it. Like, I can't stand that shit. I'd be like, Oh, HR is in the room. It's horrible. Um, and so, so your language does mean something. Like if you say, well, that's against our policy against this, like, Oh, Oh, like, how can you speak like a [00:19:00] regular person and not?

Like a, um, just like cut and paste policies and send them out and just not have like any humor or anything. Cause how do you expect people to be vulnerable and share things with you if you can't talk to them in a real way? Because the easy part of HR and will be replaced by AI and outsourcing is looking at a policy and doing payroll and benefits.

Like that'll be replaced that easily. It's already replaced. It's already been outsourced. What won't be is that you and I have a connection and I know that you're about to leave the organization. And I made you feel better and I got you to stay that a I can't do yet yet, um, for a while. Uh, so getting like an having an interview with the chief marketing officer and realizing that person is going to make tremendous changes in the organization.

That's exactly what you all [00:20:00] need for the growth model you're on or the growth trajectory you're on is beautiful. Interviewing someone else and realizing. That is a toxic, toxic person. Everyone, like they don't see it, but you know it. And you just save the company from not interviewing with that per or not hiring that person.

This is the stuff that HR can do, but you're not going to be able to do this. If you talk like a cop or you just act like you have a, see, I was going to say something, and so I was trying to think of the polite way to say it. And I honestly, here's my problem. I actually can't think of a polite way to say you're too structured.

How's that? That really doesn't come across as the colorful way I'd like to say it, but you know, like if you're sitting next to a pole or something like that and it's too close to you, how's that for you?

[00:20:52] David: You can't come off like you're dead inside. There you go.

[00:20:57] Keri: Dead inside. Sure. Yeah, that's it. But like no [00:21:00] one's going to talk to you.

No one's going to share. Like it's a very, it's a very vulnerable space to talk to someone. I talked to someone the other day. Okay. And she's like, I've cried more in the past month at this role than 10 years. And the reason she felt like she could talk to me is because she heard me use humor and be empathic on team calls.

She didn't know me. She's never known she, she hasn't talked to me before, but she felt comfortable enough to talk to me. And sad because I presented, I was like, hello, and that's policy. We talk about this and here's my performance management. It's really important. Like it is fucking important, but like, how do you like explain it?

Like, instead of saying it's a good program and process to do. And here's the timelines you can say, it's really important because if we hit our goals, we hit our revenue, you get paid more, you'll like your job more. You'll like your family more cause you don't go home all pissed off. How about that?

That's amazing. Yeah, that sounds

[00:21:58] David: good.

[00:21:59] Keri: [00:22:00] That's better than it's a process. Yeah, there are a couple of questions in the chat too. If you wanted to pick up some of some of those as well. Yeah, I've been not looking at the chat because I was trying to focus. So if you just tell me I'm really I'm trying to focus because otherwise I'll read the chat and then I'll miss the question and I'm really trying to like be much better.

[00:22:20] David: Well, Galen has asked, you know, is HR changing? Is HR's bad reputation going to become a thing of the past? Or are the Warriors, you know, just a minority of the foreseeable

[00:22:30] Keri: future? Oh, Galen.

See, first of all, he knows what I'm going to say. That's why I'm like, he and I have had this discussion already. So I'm just like, I've been set up. But no, I think, um, It, it's not changing as fast as I'd want it to, but nothing changes as fast as I want it to. So I have to like calm down from that perspective.

So if I take a long view, It definitely has improved. I mean from the [00:23:00] time where when I look at my mom who was in corporate And it was personnel and it was mainly men actually who were about to get reduced not joking This is how she explained it to me It was a lot of men who were about to get reduced and they're like, what do we do with jim?

We're like, I don't know put him in hr because it was so disrespected Like it was so incredibly disrespected. This is like in the, what, seventies and eighties. And it was like, it just was like, they didn't know what to do with them. So they put them in HR. So the fact that it's, we don't call it personnel, the fact that we're changing the fact that it's a profession, the fact that I can write a book about it, the fact that people care about it, the fact that there's people managing people that is a huge amount of change.

But are we still made fun of on every TV show? Yes. Is there like an amazing, like, I don't know, hero of the TV show that is HR. Um, so I think that it's, we still have [00:24:00] a long way to go. And, but I do see some, I do see some change. I mean, I just want it to be tomorrow. But there, there are people who are, it's a profession and I see quite a few companies are like, no, I need to like figure this out and I need to really partner with strong people.

So, and the one woman that I know who's a really great chief people and engagement officer, the CEO has. Uh, has asked her to do other work like contact center and marketing because she's so good. It doesn't have to be in people in engagement or culture or HR. It can be helping the business because you're a good business person.

That's really cool.

[00:24:41] David: So another question that had come in, Robin had asked, we'll have to come back for the recording on this, but she said, uh, how can I, as an employee build a positive relationship with HR? Cause I kind of have the point of view that they're there for the company and not for me. Yeah,

[00:24:55] Keri: no.

And it, uh, I can totally understand why people have that. And some HR people [00:25:00] really are that way and they're very happy to do the company. I have fought more for employees who will never know that I argued for them and that, do you want me to, they just, they just don't know. And they, they won't. Um, I think if you're an employee, call your HR person, like, trust me, no one ever calls us to say, I just want to talk to you today.

Like, it's usually like, let me tell you something. Like there, no one ever calls to say, all right. Yeah, no one ever calls to be like, I just wanted to say, I really appreciated you. No one, no one. Um, so, so if you could just, if you want to know your HR person, like call and say, I want to know what you do during the day or how can we better part, just ask the question and see.

And it would be, it's amazing because I get a ton of information. Like I I'll do stay interviews with people and that's, you learn a ton of information. They can give you feedback on culture. You can [00:26:00] say, you know what? I can be a part of a pilot group. If you're launching something around performance management or succession or training, like ask me first, or I'll review a communication for you.

Like you could be a part of it as an employee and get feedback, which is really helpful because we're always looking for feedback to make things better.

[00:26:20] David: And Corey came in with a question, said, I've been able to build trust with people in the office, but I'm struggling to do the same with remote employees without it feeling contrived or forced.

Any advice for building trust remotely and organically?

[00:26:34] Keri: You know, for remotely, I've, well, it's camera. If it's not on camera, I can't build the rapport as much. So that like, I've found that if everyone's on camera, I will forget that we didn't, we haven't met in person because you can kind of chat. Now I know I have this horrible background, but if I didn't, You would see about me, right?

And then I would see you [00:27:00] and I'd be like, Oh my God, is that a picture? And like, you could actually bond quite a bit on camera. I find, um, and I take like the first part of the meeting to ask how they're doing. Um, and maybe closing with some, like how you doing or what you're gonna, you know, what you're gonna do on the weekend, but finding some kind of social.

Interaction to chit chat because especially with like in the office, you can like run into each other on the way to the bathroom and you know, it's not a meeting so you could chit chat. But for when remote every single time it's like, start at 10, go right into the meeting. And it's like, how do you put just a few minutes of chit chat in there to talk?

And say something, I mean, not for Robin with her mushrooms and fentanyl, but other like, if you didn't like what's is a hot dog, a hand is a hot dog, a sandwich. It's a great question to ask anyone. And like, everyone gets excited about it. Um, so like, how can you do, [00:28:00] or, I mean, the local sports team, there's always something, um, but that's what I try to do and have just, and I, I tend to have, um, Schedule check ins with people to sandwich Michael, you're going to start shit right now.

You're going to start people with that. Um, but, but I also schedule like weekly check ins because then sometimes if you know, you're going to talk, you can talk about work and then you can also chitchat. Right. But if you only talk to people once a month, then it's like, you got to squish in all the work.

So how do you meet with them more frequently as well? But camera, you got to have that camera on. I think it's so hard now not to have the camera on, um, to bond. Cause then, yeah, I don't know what they're doing. They could not be really listening to me or anything.

[00:28:49] David: So Michael was wondering, you mentioned that employees, you know, they felt safe to approach you because he had spoken up and he used humor during meetings.

Uh, how can introverted HR managers still [00:29:00] be those HR warriors and lean into soft skills or speak up when that might not be an area that they're naturally comfortable with?

[00:29:08] Keri: Uh, you're assuming I'm an extrovert. I'm actually not. I play one. On TV. Um, I hate, I'm not, we do caliper assessments and I think my gregarious score is like 20th percentile or something.

So I'm not actually a big fan of being in front of a large crowd or anything like that, or being a networking group, like look, um, socializing is better, like smaller groups. So I think. So that is hard. Like that part is hard. And so for, for me, how do you kind of get with like, talk with the team? How do you kind of in, uh, get with the team meeting, go out to like, if they're doing a team building or something, like, how do you kind of integrate yourself with the team a little bit?

Um, but then you asked the [00:30:00] other question of like the, The courageous part. That's always the easier one for me. And so, but when I've helped people like figure that out, you do have to really plan ahead. So if you're, if you're an introvert and it's going to be hard for you to speak up, role play it, find your buddy.

There's got to be another HR person inside or outside the company that you can talk to. Or maybe you have a, like your manager can help you, um, practice it. And like, no, that you're going to have to speak up and you have to rev yourself up for it sometimes. And sometimes if you have a trusted advisor, they might say, this is not the time you have to speak up.

You have to like make a plan. I might have to get to someone who's going to get to this other person first. Right. It's very political. Sometimes you can't just go straight on. Um, sometimes you, right. You have to think about, um. Okay. This person is more of the influencer. So let me get to them to do that.

And so it's very, you have to be very thoughtful about it. I have [00:31:00] sometimes in the moment I'll say something and I was like, not the right thing to say because what HR has to watch is the more we bring it up, you have to find this balance because sometimes the more you bring up like a talent, like say there's a talent that you know is toxic, but no one else does.

You keep bringing it up and then all of a sudden that leader will go. I think you just don't like Jim. And you're like, actually, everyone's telling me that Jim sucks. No one will tell you. So then the leader is like, I think you just don't like him. And so we have to have this balance and it's really tough.

Cause that's why we have to try to encourage people to go talk to someone else and stand up for themselves. Because if we keep saying it, we'll get branded. Like you just don't like this person and they'll stop listening. So it's this hard, it's really hard to figure out when to use your courage and when to let it kind of dissipate a little bit so you can get someone else to do it.

It's hard. [00:32:00] It's really hard work. Like, as I like, that's why HR, I really want strong warriors in it because it's really tough work. It's not easy to, to be this. Mediator constantly and trying to help people and trying to balance. It's really tough. It's exhausting. And then at the same time, you have someone who has sex in a conference room and you got to fucking deal with that.

Really? It's horrible.

[00:32:27] David: Yeah, shifting gears slightly from that.

Emerson asks, What resources or learning opportunities do you recommend for me to expand my knowledge and skills for a manager role in people and culture? I'm looking for a global remote role. So what tips would you recommend to help me stand out?

[00:32:52] Keri: So there's a couple things. One, you do have to know your stuff, right?

So if you're looking for a generalist role, you do like, what are those skills that you need? [00:33:00] So like the generalist world and there's, what's nice about the generalist world now too, is there's so many newsletters and, and, and, and, um, current reports that you can read. So you can start to kind of understand like what's going on in benefits and comp.

And so I think you have to have your. Your best buddies. And those like, I know where to get comp information. I know, cause you don't have to be an expert in it, especially as a generalist, you don't have to be an expert, but you have to kind of know what best practices are and where you should kind of go.

Then if you're a specialist, then you got to go deep in the specialist skills. Now, what I think helps you and what David and I have been talking about are these influencing skills. for HR. What doesn't get replaced by AI is how you can influence how you can tell your story, how you can get people on board because HR is only a job of of influence.

We have no direct power. Rarely do we have direct [00:34:00] power. It is rare, rare, rare. So all of our power comes from relationships and from influencing. And the only way you can do that is be a salesperson. And so I've told a ton of HR people to go to your sales. Folks, first of all, I love salespeople. They'll talk, they'll talk your ear off.

They'll tell you everything why they're so amazing. And if you take 50 percent of that, you can really learn a lot. Um, but there's so like, they know how to tell a story. They know how to find the pain. They know how to talk to people, like go to your sales folks. Don't go to only, I'm going to be such a pain.

Uh, don't go to Sherm. I mean, that's helpful for tactical stuff. But Sherm's not going to tell you how to, I'm just, now I'm, now I'm being, now I'm going to get really in trouble, but Sherm's not going to tell you how to influence. I mean, I know maybe they do, but the last time I checked, they didn't. So go find like sales people, go find storytellers.

And find out how [00:35:00] they sell their ideas because that's all we do in HR. That's all we do is we sell our ideas. We figure out how, what programs and what can help the company. And then we got to figure out how to sell it. And you got to sell it to executives who don't need to, they don't want to hear you.

Not because it's you, but because they don't have time. So you got to do it in three bullet points. Your agenda just got smooshed from 15 minutes to. Five seconds. And you gotta like, put your point out there quickly and sell it. And then you got to execute on it, by the way. So if you don't know, so I think the influencing and then round out with project planning.

So go learn how to project plan from project management institute or something like that. That's a, that's HR people who can get stuff done instead of just talking about it. That's a, an amazing combination. And again, not replaced by AI. To this point,

[00:35:59] David: that's an interesting [00:36:00] point that you make there about getting stuff done.

And it's and being able to project manage throughout the company. You know, sometimes I think HR isn't trusted because they're maybe like a bit distant from the day to day work of people within the business, right? So how can HR professionals who are seen as being a bit off to the side of whatever's going on, stay plugged into the business strategy and the work itself that's going on?

[00:36:23] Keri: Yeah, I think it's um, It's very easy for HR folks to go to a lot of conferences and hear a best practice and then want to plop it into their company without even realizing would it work at the company, right? Like, oh, I heard that Google's doing this. And so therefore we should do it. It's like, well, it doesn't even fit.

And so I think the more HR folks can go talk to the business and be in those team meetings and listen to what's happening and not be in a bubble, it is very easy for HR folks to say, I'm, I'm, I'm so busy. I can't be a part of that meeting because, you know, [00:37:00] your job is really to listen to that meeting and you're like, Yeah.

But if I could skip that meeting, I could like write that policy that I need to, or I could deal with that investigation or something like that. You can't like you got, this is where again, the job is tough because you're going to have to like say, no, you're going to have to wait over here because I need to learn about the business.

Cause if I can figure out the business and be connected to them, I can make sure our goals. Attached to the business and therefore I'll be involved and I'll understand and I won't be so outside. And then maybe one day the CEO will ask me to run something besides HR or in addition to HR because I actually know what's going on in the business.

So you can't, I see a lot of HR folks kind of shield themselves cause they're like, well, I don't need to know. I got to work on this investigation. I'm so busy. And then they're also not getting stuff done. And that's what the business can't stand. It's like, you didn't get your shit done. Like you promised me this and you didn't get it done.

And there's [00:38:00] only so many times HR folks can say, and I've said it before and I've said it, I'm dealing with an employee relations issue, right? I couldn't get to it. Like you got to figure out how to manage both. And this, again, job's hard.

[00:38:14] David: Kind of a follow up question to that is, you know, what if leaders are actively kind of keeping you out of meetings because they don't think you'd provide value?

Kind of, how do you overcome that or communicate that you, you know, you need to be involved?

[00:38:29] Keri: Yeah, um, I used to do a very, very basic net promoter score. So that promoter goes from what, like zero or one to 10. I always forget. Um, and I just asked the leaders, would you recommend us at a networking group? Yes or no.

That's it. Would you recommend this team? Because we had like a three person team for every group. And if they recommended, that was great. And if they didn't, I would ask them questions as to why. And so I just went head on and said, like, you're not inviting [00:39:00] me to your team meetings and why? And would you recommend this team and why?

That was the only way you could get to it. Because if you work around it, you're just feeding their Reason of why they're not inviting you because most leaders don't want some passive aggressive HR person sitting at the table. They at least want someone who's going to say like, Hey, I can see you. Don't invite me.

What what's going on? Cause I really want to work with you. So how could I, how could I get invited? To your meeting. I've had, but I had a, I've had a leader who, um, someone who was on the team. Um, I inherited, he's like, oh yeah, I never invite him to the meeting. He's complete. He just sits there. He just died.

He does nothing. And I said, okay, well, you're going to get a new HR person and I'm going to ask you to invite her. And she'll participate and she'll be a good business colleague to you. He was in love and he was like, this is great. So, but I had to go at it straight on.[00:40:00]

[00:40:01] David: We've asked a lot of very serious questions. So I just need to know from your point of view. Is a hot dog a sandwich?

[00:40:09] Keri: I don't know. I don't know. I mean, it seems like by the terms that a sandwich is meat in a bun, then a hot dog is a sandwich, right? Cause like the definition is meat in a bun. But it doesn't feel like a sandwich.

Do you know what I'm saying? It doesn't feel like a sandwich.

[00:40:29] David: But you don't need meat to have a sandwich, you know, it's a vegetable sandwich. Well,

[00:40:33] Keri: I guess so. You can see how I don't. It's a dumpling.

[00:40:41] David: That might be the best answer we've had yet.

[00:40:44] Keri: Goes to a dumpling. Yeah. I don't, I don't really have, I just know to ask the question, I don't really have a dog in the race or a hot dog. I don't really have a hot dog in the race. Um, but I just know that people like go crazy with it and it is a [00:41:00] nice, easy thing.

That's not going to get you in too much trouble talking about alcohol like we were talking about earlier. Like you do have to have a couple in your pocket of like not wanting to talk about stuff that will get you in trouble. Usually a hot dog is a sandwich does not. That is a question that doesn't get you in trouble or like what's your favorite move while even the movie could get like, what's a food you could eat every day?

That usually anything food related can kind of, okay, we all got to eat, you know, we all have to eat. But then if you're like, I want to ask, like, are you a vegan? Are you a vegetarian? Then we get into like, Oh, how could you eat me? So maybe like skip, man, I'm in California. So we get a lot of that. But, um, but just like, what food would you eat all the time?

I work with a client that's they're pretty healthy. And so I talk a lot about candy and they talk about like they're always running and eating healthy. And I was like, geez. I eat candy all the time. So I felt a little like, sorry about that.

[00:41:59] David: [00:42:00] Michael says, uh, I recently asked what's the best compliment you received recently.

And even that one, a little haywire, which that one can go haywire.

[00:42:11] Keri: Yeah. It sounds so nice at first. Does it like, Oh, and then you're like, Oh, wait, I was at a club. You know what I mean? That's that's when it goes. Well, the story was that they were leaving a company or something and, um, there was like a, I guess some kind of like an exit interview or something.

I can't remember exactly the specifics, but somebody on the call said, Oh yeah. And this person's really fit being from the UK, which means attractive. And I was like, Oh, that's not really, I mean, technically a compliment, but the situation has just taken us totally off track.

[00:42:51] David: Off the rails. Yeah. Like in, you know, in the States people would just be like, Oh, they do CrossFit or, you know, [00:43:00] just they're really into yoga or something.

[00:43:02] Keri: Yeah. It really, it, yeah, that one, yeah, you'd have to avoid for sure. For sure. Yeah. Now, like, it would be a nice, like, I was trying to think how you could say it, like, what's the nicest work compliment, but then that would trigger everyone to think of the opposite. And they'd be like, oh, well, I guess we can't say, like, I was, you know, had a BBL or something like that.

For anyone who wants to look that up, you're welcome.

[00:43:30] David: So, uh, kind of just an off the cuff question is, you know, throughout your career, who's somebody who's, who's your favorite HR person that you've worked with and what did you kind of take inspiration from?

[00:43:44] Keri: Um, my favorite. I think the person that I'm working with now has to be one of my favorites because she's so business oriented, right? Um, and she's so, she's navigated, [00:44:00] uh, like a new CEO she's, she is, knows her HR stuff, but is like a real person to talk to. And she's a true warrior. So I think she's like my favorite and she does like other stuff.

Right. And she has a varied background too. So I think that's been like, it's really cool to see her work and to be inspired by what she does.

[00:44:24] David: Um, we've only got about 10 minutes left. If anybody wants to ask any more questions, be sure to get them in. Um, so I was going to ask you about this because there's these like TikTok videos going around and they satirize sort of like how Gen Z, like managers or HR folks deliver feedback in a way that's, you know, kind of fits their, the Gen Z style.

So it'd be like, you know, you told Brian his email was spam. Which is awesome, but please don't do that again, you know. So like, I know they're meant to be funny, but I actually haven't seen this happen a few times in real life. Is that sort of, would you say that it falls under building trust [00:45:00] or is that sort of betraying it in some ways?

[00:45:04] Keri: But say more, David, what do you think about betraying the trust? Meaning, oh, putting it on a video or no?

[00:45:09] David: No, sort of like maybe coming at them. We're trying to like use their language, but maybe would they, is it's going to be come off as like condescending almost. Oh,

[00:45:19] Keri: I see what you're saying. Yeah. It's like when, um, like, what did they go like, okay, boomer.

And you're like trying to, it's like, when I say to my son, I'm like, that was so mid, he's like, don't ever say that again. Like, do you ever mean like, don't ever. Say that is so cringe. Don't say it. So I think there's something about how do you meet someone where they're, where they're at? Meaning like, I, I know I've had people on my team where if you didn't come at them very like straight on and say, Oh my God, that was so, that was a nightmare.

Like we need to talk. Right. And they're like, Oh, okay. Okay. Okay. And someone else, if you said it to them [00:46:00] that way, they would start to tear up immediately. And you would just say to them, like, Oh, what did you think of that? And they would be like, Oh my God, that was terrible. Did you think it was terrible?

And you're like, yeah, let's talk about it. And then again, like the other person, like to be like, that was great. And you'd be like, go, got to go straight. So I think there's something about customizing your message, but also being true to who you are. And so you can't like use. Their language just because unless you use their language, like I use a lot of drag queen language I'm not doing that just to like to to bond with someone That's the way I talk like i've infused that language.

And so if you really did say mid all the time And you're having to be 29 years old, then keep saying it mid, but don't like inject it in the conversation. If that you never use it and you're trying to be hip, like it is going to sound kind of sunny and also like, you have no idea what you're talking about and you're kind of full of shit.

So don't do that. You can use your old boomer [00:47:00] language or whatever. It's okay. But try to like, just adjust the message. So they'll hear it, which is that's it's the way you're going to give versus the actual words. But don't try to be cool. It never works.

[00:47:14] David: Yeah. You got to know what these things mean before you drop it on God, you know,

[00:47:21] Keri: yeah. You just, and then like, I don't know, old people trying to be hip. I mean, I'm old. So like trying to be hip is like, just don't like, it's okay. You have wisdom. You don't have to like be hip and people see through it real quick. So

[00:47:36] David: it's okay. I like this question. It's a, if there was a movie about an HR person and they're the protagonist, what is the plot line of the movie?

Like what, what's the movie about?

[00:47:50] Keri: Well, I would have, because I think HR is kind of like detective work. Sometimes I would have them solving some like [00:48:00] insidious plot at the company that like, there's something horrible going on. Um, and they figure it out. And they help everyone at the end and they like save the company and it doesn't go out of business.

And like, I don't know, that'd be really cool. But they figure something out and they unearth it. Be amazing.

[00:48:23] David: Absolutely. All right. So we're kind of winding down here. We'll kind of finish on a sort of a simple question. Brings us back to where we started a little bit. So what are some of the most successful ways you've seen HR An HR team go from being seen as kind of suspect to being or sus as the Gen Z kids would say.

[00:48:44] Keri: You're so cool. You're so cool, David. So cool.

[00:48:50] David: To be seen as. You have Riz. Oh, I don't even know what that one means. Charisma. Oh, that's what that means. Oh,

[00:48:57] Keri: okay. Yeah. Riz. Charisma. Now I'm [00:49:00] flattered. Yeah.

[00:49:04] David: So, uh, you know, what are some of the, the most successful ways you've seen in the HR team go from being suspect to being seen as advocates for employees?

[00:49:13] Keri: Well, I think, um, What I mentioned is asking the questions, right? So you got to know where you're at. So when, when we did the, the, the net promoter score, like, we knew one of the, one of the groups was not happy with H.

R. So we asked the questions we went, we did something, we talked to them, we tracked it, we asked them again. Right? Um, and. You had to just talk to them. You can't ignore it. If you ignore it, people will be so happy for HR to ignore them. Right. Um, they might not realize how good you are, but they're just like, I don't want to deal with HR.

So you kind of have to like get in it. You have to get in the ring and you have to talk to them. And that's how you can move from being [00:50:00] suspicious because think about it. What, what the, the, I don't want to say, I don't know, how do I say it in a nicer way, things that are things exist in the dark. So, so people make up stuff all the time.

If they don't know, like, I work a lot with change management and when you don't tell the employees something, they don't say, usually they don't say this. I bet you they really meant for it to go really well and they probably have a really good meaning behind it. They just forgot to tell us no, what happened?

So like, Oh my God, I can't believe they didn't tell us. I bet you we're all going out of business. Like it goes dark so fast and. Like, and so, so you can't do that with your, with your clients, right? Keep talking to them. Don't like hide in the dark because they'll just make up what you're doing. I bet you they're getting ready to like lay us off or something horrible.

So like talk to them, be in the light. Oh, that sounds very California at the end, doesn't it? Maybe

[00:50:59] David: that's [00:51:00] the sign off today. That's the, that's how we're signing off today. But I was going to add, like, I've, I've actually seen what you're talking about. I worked at an organization. I remember we had, they, we'd experienced a big layoff, but those of us who were left behind, you know, we were going through these meetings and the CEO didn't come to one of the meetings.

And immediately the conversation shifted amongst people, like, you know, not in the management ranks that this was it, like, they're going to cut marketing as an entire, like, division. It was like, he just probably had another meeting. He's the

[00:51:33] Keri: CEO. It happens, but like, this is where, again, you have to be so in tune with what's going on, because people will, if they're already tense, Then the CEO not coming to the meeting.

Oh my God. The CFO walking around and not smiling. And that, that I want to tell women a smile, but I will tell executives to smile because if you're an executive walking around, like, [00:52:00] like, are you kidding me? Everyone knows who you are. Even HR can't do that. Right? If HR is walking around constantly, like people are like, Oh shit, maybe we're all getting fired.

Or maybe we're all like, You just, you gotta watch your face. So yeah, but again, I'm not trying to tell women a smile for sure, but like executives in HR probably need to like, watch your face and look a little happier because people really read into it.

[00:52:29] David: Absolutely. Well, that is all we have time for today.

We're at the hour. So I want to thank everybody for joining us for this one. Carrie, thank you so much. Yeah. This was excellent. And, um, be sure to keep an eye out for our next one. We're going to be doing one on April 17th, um, with Darcy Marie Mayfield. So I'm excited about that conversation. She's a remote working culture expert.

Um, so definitely get signed up for that one and we will see you next time. And in the meantime, be in the light. I love it. [00:53:00]

[00:53:00] Keri: Bye.