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David Rice: welcome everyone to the latest in our community events series. Uh, we always like to have these sessions. It's always a good time. Get experts in front of people and share their insights.

So, uh, excited to do that today. We're happy that you could join us and take part. My name is David Rice. I'm the Executive editor for People Managing People. Today's session is gonna be focused on diagnosing offboarding and rethinking exit intelligence. We're gonna be talking about some data stuff, and we'll be speaking with some top voices and thought leaders in the space of offboarding and people analytics.

So Joining us today, uh, we have Jena Dunay. She's the founder of Recruit, the Employer. She's a mom of a young child, so I always, you know, check in with my new moms.

Uh, how are you, how are you doing, Jena? Are you sleeping through the night yet, or,

Jena Dunay: you know, I would tell you that I was, was sleeping through the night largely for the first four months of his life. He actually did pretty good, but [00:01:00] last night he chose not to. So obviously, right before I do this, he chose to party like at 2:00 AM So I'm, I'm doing all right today.

David Rice: Awesome. Also, joining us, we have Roxanne Laczo, uh, head of People Analytics at CloudFlare. Roxanne. Now, I was looking at your LinkedIn profile. I noticed you have dog paws on there and you were sharing a little bit about your dog rescues before we started. So, uh, how many dogs do you have and what kind? I asked this as somebody with four, and so I understand if it's a crowded house.

Roxanne Laczo: Okay, good. Well, you probably be by one. I have three dogs all rescues. Uh, you may be able to see my sleeping bulldog behind me here. She's my, um, and I'm gonna plug Austin Bulldog Rescue for anybody in Austin looking for a dog. Um, I also have a pug Pekinese mix who's real goofy looking. And then I have a Pekinese mix, so I have a, a little trio of three little dogs.

David Rice: Oh, I used to have a pekinese. They make some very interesting noises. All right, well, [00:02:00] uh, so hopefully everybody's answering the poll. Uh, while you finish that up, I'm gonna just kind of set the table for this discussion, right? Today's topic we're talking about offboarding and the data that we get with it, what we do with that data and how it drives decisions that impacts things like employee experience and talent, our talent management approach.

Right? Now, for a lot of companies, offboarding involves little more than an interview or a survey, right? It's a, maybe it's a handshake, essentially, right? And a quick thanks. But whether you're conducting a layoff or you're letting someone go for performance, how you conduct an offboarding and what you actually take from it says a lot about not only your org, but your leadership.

So with that in mind, uh, I wanna start here. Offboarding. You know, I think it's a process that I, on the surface a lot of leaders might struggle to understand the value of if they're not in the people space. Right. But maybe that's because what it produces is something that, uh, we're uncomfortable with a lot of the time.

Right. [00:03:00] So, I wanna start with Jena. If offboarding, I'm gonna ask you kind of a weird question, but if offboarding is a mirror. What does it typically reflect back at us? Is it culture? Is it leadership? Is it processes? What do we, what do we see when we look into offboarding?

Jena Dunay: I think it shares all of the above, to be perfectly honest.

So if I'm thinking about offboarding, most people will think about it as just like a process. Like we go through this, it's just we're gonna tick the box, move on. But what I really think that it does for a lot of organizations, whether it's an involuntary offboarding, like a layoff or a voluntary offboarding where the person's deciding to leave to go somewhere else, it gives us a lot of data and information around who we are as a culture, um, and how we show up when we are offboarding people.

So obviously I'm in the line of layoffs because we do outplacement and how you leave somebody is the lasting impression that they have with you. So a lot of people think onboarding is the most important, which I would argue is very important. But how you leave somebody is equally, if not more important because of recency bias and what they remember most.

So, [00:04:00] um, we see that with organizations, how you treat someone as they are leaving is way more important than when they are entering into your organization. So culture, I would say is the biggest piece of it.

David Rice: Alright, Roxanne, I'm gonna ask you kind of the same question, but also I'm curious, why do you think so many organizations struggle to treat offboarding as like a strategic moment rather than sort of a procedural?

Roxanne Laczo: Absolutely. So agree with everything Jena said. Uh, well, well stated, and I think you said something David, when you talked about employee experience, and I think when we think about employee experience, we often think about very discreet individual events, but it's really the entire cycle from first hearing about a company to exiting a company, being an alumni or potential customer of that company.

So when I think about why is offboarding so important, because it actually reflects the entire experience, or it can reflect the entire experience someone has at a company, at every single touch point, and it can be a really big missed opportunity if we're not paying attention to those signals [00:05:00] or information that people are getting.

Um, your second question, remind me.

David Rice: No, it was, uh, well, why do you think so many organizations struggle to treat offboarding as like a strategic moment rather than a procedural one?

Roxanne Laczo: Right. So I think part of it gets to kind of my comment about the entire employee experience. So I spent a lot of time thinking and talking about.

The employee lifecycle, and it's bigger than that. It's actually that the candidate, pre candidate lifecycle to the exit. And, and I think when we, we kind of don't think about it in that holistic view, we, we don't think of the importance of that discreet event because for a lot of people, I mean, we're busy.

We have a million things going on. We have fires burning everywhere we turn, right? We're focused on keeping people in the organization what's going on in the organization. I lead a people analytics function. We're very focused on our current workhorse data. I think missing that piece of people exiting really does not allow us to connect all the dots to fully understand what are the touch points in employee experience and employees day-to-day activities that really influence [00:06:00] voluntarily, especially if someone's gonna leave.

Involuntary is another tricky one, right? That, that could be a whole in itself. But I think not focusing on, on offboarding as a strategic lever, you're missing opportunities to get real meaningful information. About what aspects of the employee experience are contributing to the culture that you experience contributing to your day-to-day environment, contributing to the things that engage you and contribute to the things that don't engage you.

So really important data point.

Jena Dunay: I'd also like to add here a, is there like a visual? Right, so you were talking about the employee life cycle. It's a cycle. It's a circle. And oftentimes organizations will start at the attraction, as you were saying, Roxanne. And then they kind of go all the way and then we kind of fall off before the off-boarding.

And so we've made like this weird semi-circle that hasn't really fully completed. And when you have that completion, it gives you more to Roxanne's point of the entire data set to, to help inform how do we attract, how are we retaining people, what's most important to them. And I think another reason why we don't like to look at it is because it [00:07:00] is, to your point, David, uncomfortable.

We have to then acknowledge maybe we don't do things right or maybe we handled this layoff poorly or maybe we, we don't want to acknowledge people leaving because it's more fun to talk about people joining. And so it's also this emotional component to the entire, to the offboarding experience itself.

So one, we don't complete it, and two, it can be a little emotional.

David Rice: Maybe I've been spending too much time online, but when you made the circle that drops off, I thought of the melty face emoji. Oh,

Roxanne Laczo: well yeah. But maybe that's, we're melt at that point, what it's like. Right.

David Rice: Yeah.

Roxanne Laczo: And I, I actually wanna add one more comment 'cause Jena kind of spurred a, a thought in me is that if you're not paying attention to what happens at the end of the employee lifecycle, you actually can't necessarily do a really good job at the beginning of the employee lifecycle.

Jena Dunay: Yes. Because you

Roxanne Laczo: opportunities to set that foundation. Right. And so, so we're talking about offboarding, but if we were in another webinar talking about onboarding, we'd have the same conversation around how important it is to measure [00:08:00] all those key points there. 'cause you know, that impacts the life cycle all the way through.

So to your point, it's a big circle and everything influences one another. Mm-hmm.

David Rice: Absolutely. Well, it looks like we've got some poll results to share, so I'm gonna go ahead and pop, have, there we are, pop those up on the screen. So it looks like the leading reason is low participation in exit interviews are survey, um, I think I know the answer to this, but does this dis, does this surprise either?

Sure.

Jena Dunay: No, no, not at all. Not at all.

David Rice: I guess, you know, my question when I see that is how do we sort of, well, I mean we, we, I'm sure we'll come back to this, but how do we sort of make the exit interview or survey more enticing to the person leaving? Like why should they, what do, how are we positioning it as, um, to motivate them to actually participate in this process when they're no longer invested in the company?

Quite frankly.

Roxanne Laczo: Yeah. I, I think it, you know, [00:09:00] and I'm gonna link it back to onboarding again, there's a really strong component of emotional safety, psychological safety, and trust. I think is really inherent to a company, the culture like Jena talked about earlier, um, to your emotional psychological engagement with the company.

I think when you build that foundation of trust and you're open to feedback at every point along the life cycle, uh, and what comes with that is I think a really strong measurement strategy, which we don't all do well, right? Onboarding survey, candidate surveys, onboarding surveys, employee engagement or employee experience surveys, transfer surveys, you know, all the different things you can do.

Quality of hire manager surveys. If you kind of embed that culture of feedback into your daily lifecycle and have employees know that their, their information is confidential, that the information is actually being used, there's actions taking, uh, leaders are, are using the information and data actually make it a better experience for people.

I think you're more likely at the end of the like cycle to get people on board to want to leave feedback. Right. And I [00:10:00] think there's, there's a real framing around exit where. We need to stop framing it as necessarily like this big, bad, scary thing because it's just a reality of life. It's a reality of work.

You can love a company and leave a company for different reasons, right? So really kind of building that strong foundation of psychological safety and trust will make people more, will likely make people more compelled and willing to give feedback because it's in the interest of creating great employee experience and everybody wants that.

Jena Dunay: Yeah, I would also say it's more of the question of why aren't people doing it more than how can we make them do it right? So like if I think about my own experience, I was at an organization for about two and a half years and it ended up leaving the organization. There are a variety of reasons that it was time for me to go.

Some were personal and some were cultural. And what I think the organization did really well that this might be helpful to somebody else listening, is they had built Trust, Roxanne's Point from the very beginning with me around getting feedback [00:11:00] continually. And so by the time that I was leaving, my manager asked me a very direct question.

He said, are you leaving because of me? And we, and I mean, that's a really bold question to ask and, but we had built enough trust in one another and I said, I'm not leaving because of you, but we weren't set up for success and here's the reasons why. And here's what the next person coming into this can do, be what you guys can do better in order to make that effective.

So. Well, that's a very bold question. Right. And we had built, I'm not suggesting everybody do that, but that type of rich information that they then got from me, I was willing to give it because we had built that relationship of trust and that psychological safety that I could say, yeah, this was a part of the problem and this is why I am leaving to go do something else.

So hopefully this is helpful to somebody listening, but I, I do think that having that psychological safety is a key component to it of why people do not give it, because they're fearful of even the ramifications after they leave. Mm-hmm. And they wanna be nice. People wanna be nice. Right. We don't wanna hurt somebody, offend somebody, have somebody have a bad taste about us, feel like we're complaining, and so psychologically we don't want to [00:12:00] give that feedback back.

David Rice: Absolutely. I, I like the boldness of the manager, I mean, to, to have like the trust in you that, you know, yeah. You can ask and get a, a candid answer.

Jena Dunay: Yeah.

David Rice: Um, obviously he's seen, you know, seen the research about why people leave, right? Yeah.

Jena Dunay: True, but that is true. Right? A lot of people leave because of their managers.

And so giving those data points to understand why people are leaving and then linking it back to, okay, what can we do to supply our managers perhaps with, to equip them better to, so that we do not have this problem, or are we having a problem with certain types of managers that are, um, you know, creating problems for us.

Right. It just gives us some more information that allows us to make more educated decisions with our entire people experience.

David Rice: Mm-hmm. Well, when we think about like exit interviews and surveys, you know, obviously they're not the same thing, but they do have something in common, I would say. And that's, you know, like we said, the low participation.

Right. You know, and I'm defining participation rate not just as showing up, but if, [00:13:00] if the person sharing something of value or interest, like investing a little bit of time with it, have, what have you kind of done in your roles to, to help. Push the participation up in interviews or surveys, like what would you say is at the core of it?

Is it like a design issue or is it that trust issue that you just kind of alluded to that you experienced with that manager? I mean, we've talked about psychological safety. I know, but is there something that we can do on a design level, would you say?

Roxanne Laczo: Yeah, I, I think the answer is all of the above and.

Kind of getting back to our point about like, make feedback just a part of the daily experience, uh, make it safe for people to give feedback. But I also think give people a heads up, even if it's ironically during onboarding. Like, you know, we have touchpoint throughout your entire time here with us.

We're looking for information and those touch points come at x, y, Z time points and they also come when you leave. So give people a heads up that we are so proactively invested in our employee experience that if you decide to leave, we actually want [00:14:00] to know what those reasons are so we can make it a better experience.

So I think a lot of it is about just communication, right? I'm sure there's people on this call. I know I have received exit surveys without even knowing I was gonna receive an exit survey. Hmm. So some things are very simple, right? Just communicate about it. The exit interview, you know, that's an interesting one because some companies do them, some companies don't.

Some companies do both. Some companies do one or the other. I think the exit interview number one, like it, it has to be conducted in a place of safety. Again, we're kind of getting back to that. But it can be a really rich source of information to, you know, Jena's manager who said, you know, was it me or what was it about me?

I think those are the types of information points you can't always get from a survey. Surveys often have open-ended comments. Right. But when we're focusing just on kind of discreet categories of information that are captured on a survey, we're missing the nuance of the experience of a leader. And, and Jena mentioned, I'm gonna reframe it as manager effectiveness, I could probably talk all day about manager effectiveness.

I would say, and I've said it [00:15:00] like if there's one thing I could measure across the entire employee life cycle, it would be manager effectiveness. Mm-hmm. Because absolutely critical to the employee experience.

Jena Dunay: Yeah, I would actually like to bring a different perspective in on the, we talked about voluntary, you know, offboarding.

I would actually like to talk about involuntary offboarding, that there is data that you can use through partners to get insights as to how do people feel about your organization after you got let go. And so us as an outplacement provider, we actually do some of that data that is, as a third party, we can ask questions and get those sentiments that you obviously, as the person laying off the employees can't really get to understand where is our brand, how did we handle that?

Like getting that feedback to understand how do we do this better and how do we, as we call it layoffs, do layoffs with dignity. And so you can collect data. When you are letting people go, even though a lot of people don't think that you can, you just have to utilize a third party in a very, you know, discreet way.

But to understand, does my organization, did we handle this well? [00:16:00] Um, I went through a layoff personally, it's why I started my organization and I can tell you that my. I have great feelings towards that organization, even though they let me go because of how they let me go. And so to your first question, David, I think you said like, how do you, when we look at an offboarding experience, what's it say about our culture?

I think that leadership is really made not in the good times, but in the bad times. And so how an organization approaches offboarding from an involuntary standpoint is just as important as the voluntary standpoint, and quite frankly, is more impactful to your employer brand and the ability to build alumni of your organization and not just ex employees.

I know Roxanne and I talked about this offline prior, but when an organ, somebody leaves your organization, they're an advocate or an adversary of your organization moving forward. And so how you handle offboarding is actually so, so sensitive and so important to the person having a good interaction with your brand, whether you're big or small.

Roxanne Laczo: Yeah, I'm, I'm just gonna add one thought to that. And, you know, I, I own surveys at the company that I work for. [00:17:00] I've done it at a lot of different companies, and I think oftentimes managers in particular, like when you get negative feedback or maybe data results that aren't that great. Mm-hmm. And it really, you know, you can take it personally and my, my advice is always like, thank goodness you got honest results.

You know? Yes. So, like, taking that twitch, which is like mm-hmm. Yeah. Nobody wants to get constructive feedback, shall we call it? Or even like, really, really negative stuff. But you know what, yeah. People are being honest and we should be thankful that people are being honest enough to give us that feedback and information.

Now, is it some of it a little bit tainted or emotional driven? Of course. Course. The fact is it's still feedback. And when you think about some, the stories you hear about bad offboarding, involuntary experiences, that's feedback for the employer, right? Mm-hmm. About like, okay, how do we actually think about doing this in a more humane.

Way that's very handled, very differently. 'cause I know we might get to at some point when you think about rebound employees Yeah. Laid off and think about tech. So I work in tech, tons of layoffs over the last couple years. [00:18:00] A lot of people hired back. Wow. I I bet you if they had a really bad experience, they're thinking twice about going back to that organization.

Jena Dunay: Mm-hmm. Yeah. 100%. That is happening.

David Rice: You know, it's interesting, I recently had an HR leader tell me about Glassdoor reviews. We were having a conversation and they were like, well, you know, it's, it's just bitter employees on there complaining. And I thought to myself, maybe, but also to the person who's thinking about working for you, it's, they're just looking into the emotions that you're making employees feel and the impressions, like the person took the time.

After they left your organization to write this, that's a fairly strong indicator of like how you made them feel. And I think it's, you know, to the person who's looking at the place of work that says something, so this is, this gets into your employer brand and, and your ability to then go around the other end of the cycle.

Right?

Jena Dunay: Right. It connects, it connects the dots. Right? It can And I think as, [00:19:00] as as people leaders, when we're talking about feedback, I use this analogy with people, leaders when I'm talking to them is if we get negative feedback, we can either let it pierce us like a dagger and we take it personally to what Roxanne said, we can let it feel like a Texas bur, I know Roxanne, you live in Texas.

Like those bur that just kinda stick to you and you're like, oh my gosh, get off of me. Or we can treat it like a ping pong where we've received the things that we need to receive in here and let the rest bounce off and not let it take us per, take it so personally, um, and then make changes from that.

And so if you're able to move from the dagger to the ping pong ball, it's a lot easier to make changes that are actually gonna be really beneficial to your organization.

Roxanne Laczo: Absolutely. And, and I will add into that when you think about employee listening, which is really around, you know, the entire employee experience, like a really good, uh, robust employee listening strategy is gonna be extracting that external data as well.

Glassdoor, um, blind is another one, right? Some different ones. Like keeping tabs on what the sentiment is in that data and information can actually give you a lot [00:20:00] more insight than you'll ever get while somebody's employed at the company or during an exit interview. So, really important to keep tabs on that data as well.

David Rice: Yeah, absolutely. You know, I'm curious, uh, do you feel that some, you know, folks make mistakes in terms of what they're analyzing? Like maybe it's what types of data? Some, maybe some are overemphasized or over, um, invested in, or maybe some are just completely overlooked?

Roxanne Laczo: Yeah, absolutely. So, I, I kind of touched on it before from my perspective, so I, I think just looking at.

Discrete categories of information, it's information, but it's maybe not the right information. So 99% of the time someone's gonna say compensation as an example, right? That's like a very common one. Career growth, we see those all the time. So those are very factually correct, but what does it really mean?

Does it mean compensation that, like I happen to know that two of my peers who I have the same job as are making more money than me, um, is that like I heard a rumor about somebody getting some big award or equity grant and I don't know why, [00:21:00] right? So like, digging into the reasons behind those are really, really important.

And I think career growth means so many things. Does that mean I'm changing my career altogether? Does that mean I've been here for five years and I haven't been promoted? But al also, by the way, there's, there's nowhere for me to be promoted into. So I think like, finding out what is really behind those kind of like single, discrete categories is gonna give you really, really rich information.

Jena Dunay: Yeah. Context is king, right? Like having that context really does make a difference. I was coaching a leader through, um, an exit interview that they were doing. They're kind of in, in integrating some exit surveys into their organization. And, um, she was doing the exit survey and she thought that the person was leaving because of X, Y, Z reason.

She thought it was compensation. It wasn't, it had something completely different to do with it. And so she would've chalked it up and put it in her data set of like, oh, compensation, so I need to pay these people more. And was, would've made a poor strategic decision for the future of her people ops. But because she got that more rich context, it actually allowed her to be a little bit more [00:22:00] strategic and thoughtful around, oh, this was a singular instance.

This wasn't a global issue that we're having as an organization.

David Rice: Well, um. We're thinking about reframing offboarding to be as intentional as human-centered as onboarding. What advice do you have for everybody here as they, they sort of look at like strategies or, or tactics techniques about how they might do this just as a, like a starter pack, if you would.

Jena Dunay: One of the things that I've, I've noticed when I've talked to some chief people officers, this one chief people officer that I talked to recently, she said, you know, I know we're a small company.

We're a growing company. I don't anticipate that everyone's gonna be here for. 30 years, I anticipate that people will probably be here for four to five years. I want to build a culture and an organization that they are really proud to be from. So I think that is a great sentiment that we can all adopt as people, leaders, to think about that what would make our environment a great place [00:23:00] to be from an integrate that into how we approach offboarding and how we think that we should actually even think about offboarding as a strategy, right?

Let's just start at the basics of from voluntary to involuntary. We need to have a strategy and plan so that when it does happen, because it will happen voluntary or involuntary, that we know how we wanna approach it. We know that it aligns with our organization's values and that we're going to live that out.

And how we approach people and how we treat people on the way out just as much as we treated them on the way in. Be a great place where someone is from.

David Rice: Yeah, absolutely.

Roxanne Laczo: Um, so, so when I think about it. I think a big mistake we make is we always have the HR people do the, uh, exit surveys and have the conversations.

And I think that's just immediately loaded to a lot of people, right? So like, thinking very differently about who has an exit conversation. Maybe it's somebody in a completely different business unit or a leader from completely outside of your realm who you may immediately be more willing to be, have, be more candorous, right?

And [00:24:00] just give more, uh, transparent information because, you know, it's not like a direct reflection of the team you're working with. So I think, I think that's a big one. And I also think about, you know, what, if managers adopted the perspective that we are preparing our employees for their next job and that next job might not be with us.

Like, what if everything I did for my team was to help them learn and grow, to contribute in their current team roles, but also to learn and grow into whatever the next most amazing thing is? And I, I have had a team member once. And I said like, the most important thing to, to for me is that you get to do whatever you want to do in your career.

And I see my job as enabling you to do that. Now do I want you to do that here with me? Of course. But if it's not like, that's okay. So I think just shifting that mindset that it's, it's not about me as the manager, it's actually about my team and my employees and making sure that we're, we're giving them a fulfilling growing experience so they can do whatever it is they want to do and be, uh, enabled to do that.

Jena Dunay: It's a really confident manager who's [00:25:00] able to do that and to, to, to believe that to be true. And I think building, to your point, building confident managers in and in how they invest and develop their employees is that's like the greatest value that we can, we can do versus, Hey, you just need to make sure you keep these people and just keep these people and it might not be the best fit for the organization or for them long term.

And that's okay to be free and allow those people to move on to the next thing. I love that example, Roxanne.

Roxanne Laczo: And when you were talking a little bit about involuntary, um, offboarding, you know, some companies, so some of the big tech companies that did layoffs, they're like, mm-hmm. Well, here's resources for, uh, finding jobs.

Mm-hmm. Right? Here's resources for X, Y, Z. So thinking really to this humanistic point about when we offboard somebody, are we, are we giving them the resources and materials they need to actually help them through this phase and get to the next step? I think very often it's like, all right, uh, you know, thank you for your service.

And then they're out without even thinking about, like, we actually have the ability to provide each individual with a very, [00:26:00] um, human-centered, humanistic kind of hands, uh, like very hands-on approach to helping them transition outside of a company.

Jena Dunay: Yeah, I mean, I, again, this could be its total own webinar.

Obviously I have a lot of thoughts on this, but, um, treating people with dignity on their way out, it is a very, even if the person was planning on leaving, this was my situation. I was planning on leaving the organization. It was incredibly emotional the day that I got let go, and even for somebody who had a plan, knew what I was going to do next.

The emotional rollercoaster of, am I good enough? Will I ever find a job again? What will someone think of me? How do I go about this? I haven't heard, I've heard it's terrible. Like all of those emotional pieces, if an organization really care, truly cares about their people, they care about the next opportunity that they land and will provide them with the resources that help make that next opportunity possible.

Because it is a wild, wild west out there right now. I will tell you, it is the world out west. And so being able to provide that support, not only from a strategic, [00:27:00] hey, change your resume, yada yada, but like, how are you doing? And having somebody, a soft place for them to land after that is so, so, so important.

And not only is important for the health of that organization, um, for that individual, but for the health of that employer brand.

David Rice: I think you both hit it on the head and I think such important, important part of, it's sort of how you show up to these things. And if you're doing exit interviews, I mean, a great example is just like, you know, think about how you show up to an onboarding, the energy that you bring, the excitement about their new time.

It's sort of like. It doesn't have to be a funeral. You know what I mean? Yes. And like it could be excitement of like your next chapter. I remember I left a job, this is like pre pandemic and they were like, the exit interview was very much just asking questions, but she was, you know, interested in invested and asking follow up questions and sort of trying to dig a little bit deeper at this aspect or that, and I could sense that she was trying to learn something.

The organization that I left for when [00:28:00] I left that one, that exit interview, they showed up like, like they were in a boring, you know what I mean? It was just, it was awful. I mean, she barely asked, she just sort of read 'em off a sheet. I said some very like emotional things like, 'cause I was very frustrated with the role and the way it'd been managed, and she just sort of went, mm-hmm.

And then on to the next question. So it was like, it felt very cold and transactional. And I, when you asked me like, would I be a Boomerang employee for either of these organizations? Well, one, yeah. If, if the circumstances were right and we brought us back together, yeah. I would consider working for them again.

The other one absolutely not. I would never work there. Yeah. And so like that's what, that's the difference just in one, just in how you show up to it.

Jena Dunay: Yeah. One treated it like a graduation ceremony. The other treated it like a really bad chemistry class or something.

David Rice: Exactly. Um, so I guess, you know what, um, [00:29:00] part of it is like, I think you, we mentioned the psychological safety part, and that is giving the employee a chance to have a voice, right.

To bring their voice into it. What are some of the techniques that you use or have seen use to give employees maybe more control or sense of control or voice in that offboarding process?

I, sorry, Roxanne, start. That's my fault as host.

Roxanne Laczo: Very simple question. Um, I, I would say like, in my experience, I personally haven't done a lot of that, honestly, to do that. I think, um, I have a lot of ideas about how companies should do that, but that's not something particular I've done. I think for me it's really just around as a, as someone who's been a manager for a long time, is just really being open and willing to take feedback is I think is really important.

And every manager, so Janet, sounds like you had a manager like that too. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So I think like, just, just be open and yourself be vulnerable and be okay with getting maybe some feedback that's not so great. 'cause guess what? The employee, the person leaving is actually doing that to help you also.

David Rice: Mm-hmm. [00:30:00]

Roxanne Laczo: Right. So it's like, it's kind of, it's that feedback is a gift thing that's kind of, but it's actually kind of real, right? It's like people are giving you feedback in these, uh, exit interviews and whatever as a way to maybe make the place better, um, for everybody else.

Jena Dunay: Yeah, I do think that people who leave an organization that don't just wanna like burn the ships or burn all bridges, they do care about the health of the organization.

So I did provide feedback to my former employers because I did care about the company. I did want them to succeed and I, my hope was that I might be able to provide some sort of impact on my way out. So I think, I think it's around creating opportunities. For one, it has to be taught in the manager level from the very beginning, like a conversa, teaching managers that middle management, how to have really hard conversations, needs to be like the basic one-on-one that we're doing so that we're able to create an environment so that people feel comfortable to share more information.

Um, I wish I could give you a very, like, [00:31:00] data, do this plus this, it equals y. But I really do think that softer capacity of, of helping people feel comfortable, um, is really, really important. And it starts at that manager level.

David Rice: Uh, when we think about connecting it, all right, when we step back from it, we've got some insights and we've gleaned some things from it, but how do we sort of connect it all back to the employee life cycle touch points that we mentioned before, whether it's performance, promotion, manager feedback, and, and make those adjustments or, or changes that we need.

Roxanne Laczo: Mm. Yeah. So, so this is kind of, we've, we've touched on this thread of the full circle, right? The whole time, and I'm, I'm gonna go back on my manager. Effectiveness, soapbox, ex expectations are really high of managers, but you know what? Your manager for a reason, right? And like, I think expectations should be hive managers to be proactively involved in managing the employee experience and getting feedback and creating a, a great experience.

So, so think about like. You know, you could, you could look at, [00:32:00] you know, what were the, what are some of the things coming out of your, your big survey that you may or may not have done or any sort of survey touchpoint. What are the leading indicators of exits? We all have this data in organizations. You know, some of us are better or worse than looking at it, but you actually have leading indicator data to tell you why people are leaving, right?

It could be the like high performing teams with low effective managers. That's an immediate problem. And you also have multiple pieces of data probably on managers already. You have upward survey feedback and you probably have downward performance review or um, talent review data, right? So most of these data points already exist.

You should be proactively integrating them and analyzing them to look at where some of the patterns you can see that lead to exits or lead to low perceptions of career mobility. Or low perceptions of career growth and development. Right. And that data should also be informing what is the, the strategy of the talent team.

What is the strategy of the l and d team? How are business partners approaching conversations? And I think most of all, getting back to my, my favorite manager effectiveness is like we should [00:33:00] not let managers not meet the minimal expectations of what I call doing manager things. Having regular one-on-ones, having career de development conversations.

And that doesn't mean you have to have the answer. Yeah. Have the conversation and be proactive and help the employee figure some of it out. So, you know, I'm in a pretty small organization. There's not huge amounts of jobs opening left and right for people to like move in advance. So with my team, it's around what is the training or development that you need, what are the experiences that you need?

What are the, who are the people that maybe you should be meeting with throughout the company to help you remain engaged and continually learn and grow. So I think a lot of the onus is on the manager, but I absolutely think it should be. Because the managers are the most immediate impact in most cases on an employee experience.

So if you're not integrating and assessing that data around managers, I think it's a huge miss for you to really understand what in the end is contributing to that offboarding experience.

Jena Dunay: Yeah. And I also think that the data, data, to your point to, and also to use my [00:34:00] example from before of when my manager said to me like, are you the reason that I'm leaving?

You know, I, I had given enough leading indicators, if you will, in the, all the feedback and all the data that if they would've taken that data, which most people in the organization were, were not surprised when I left. Right? They were able to take that information. They're like, I'm not really surprised that, that you're leaving to go to the next thing based off of all of those pieces.

And they were able to take that information from what I've heard since moving on and actually incorporate it into the next people that they hire. I was also working with another organization where, um, I think the data can go back all the way to recruiting, right? So it's not just around the engagement, how they were engaged, but okay.

If we're really honest, if we're looking at the data in the recruiting process, this person probably wasn't a good fit, which is why they ended up leaving. So it's taking the data points and seeing, okay, was it a manager? Problem that we're having of why they're leaving. Was it like a, a process or a policy?

Was it a personal life thing or did we miss it all the way at the very beginning when this person just really wasn't a good fit? Right. And so [00:35:00] it's kind of taking all those, those, those pieces of those data and figuring where in the process that we quote unquote went wrong, if you will,

David Rice: oh, you know, if you do this right, you can create alumni networks.

You might get some Boomerang employees. I think that's something that we've seen a little bit more of lately with some of these, uh, premature layoffs that have happened. But, you know, I'm curious, um, if you get it right and you're able to use these things, or is there an opportunity to use those groups, those boomerang employees, the alumni networks to sort of make your exit data more meaningful or relational?

Jena Dunay: I can go first on this one. Okay. Um, so yes, I mean, I, I believe that if an organization does a, I'm gonna talk on the involuntary side, and I think Roxane can speak on the voluntary, um. If an organization does a layoff with dignity, they should be able to get Boomerang employees. They should be able to have organizations that feel like they're alumni of the, [00:36:00] of the company.

I have another example of A-A-C-H-R-O who they had to do a massive, massive layoff of the organization and he wasn't able to provide outplacement for everybody on his team for, for a variety of, like, they were going bankrupt, so it was not possible. Um, and, but what he did was he connected all of these people that were getting let go and he set up webinars with his competitors.

And so do you believe that all of those people, every single one of those people that were able to get a new job because of that experience, they had a, even though they got let go, they had a wonderful brand association with that organization and with the leaders that were part of that organization. So not only does it carry with.

The company, it also carries with the leaders as well. And so I just feel very, very strongly that your goal as, as a people leader, should be to the best of your ability to create alumni of your organization. 'cause it's gonna help fill your pipeline. It's the right thing to do, and ultimately it's gonna make a better experience for those people that are also left behind, [00:37:00] which we didn't talk about.

So I'll just leave that one hanging in the, in the wind there.

Roxanne Laczo: Yeah, that's, that's such a great example. Thanks for sharing that. And so, so I am a boomerang employee of a previous company I worked for, and this is a large retail organization headquartered in the Midwest. And you know where I go if I need a new tv, I still go to that store and buy stuff there.

So I'm, I'm a life, I'm still a lifelong customer. So I think all of the points Jena made, it's really around, treat people with dignity. Show them that you care that they're not just a number. I know from the big picture when a company's doing a layoff, a lot of times it's comes down to numbers. But that's what the managers.

Have the control to create an offboarding experience regardless of voluntary or involuntary, that's very humane and lets you know that they care. Right. And that's gonna keep, keep people coming back. There's another company I worked for, I've tried to boomerang. There's no jobs for me there, but I keep trying to boomerang.

Um, I'd love to work there again at some point in my life. Right. So I think that says a lot about the experience that you have at while you're at a [00:38:00] company. And I think the people, not only your manager, think about your colleagues. I mean, who do we spend more time with on a daily basis? Mm-hmm. You know, our families or our colleagues, right.

Especially for people who are back in the office. I think like that leaves a lasting impression to you. And I, I can say like one former employer have, I have friends that I will have for life all over the world because I'm that employer and I've never recreated that specific experience. So like the importance of the employee experience on a day-to-day basis, organization to create that really strong positive alumni group.

It can't be beat.

Jena Dunay: Yeah. One phrase that I think is helpful in an offboarding, especially for a voluntary, for someone, you're like, oh my gosh, I'm so upset that they ended up leaving to go to something else. One thing that I've found to be really, really powerful in those exit interviews is if it, if you truly believe this as a people leader, as the manager, if you ever need another job, you're more than welcome to come back here.

That phrase alone, like we'd love to have a conversation again, is that, is the, that that feeling that somebody has [00:39:00] receiving that information makes them feel safe, makes them feel secure, and makes 'em have the best feeling about that organization. I've had people say that to me when I left a company, and even after I gave crappy feedback about the company and them saying, that makes me have a good feeling towards that organization.

It's like a very practical thing that somebody can utilize if, again, if they feel like it's appropriate.

David Rice: Yeah. I mean, I would say it, I've had the same thing happen and it just made me feel a little bit more at ease about, 'cause when you leave a job, it is a risk, right? You're taking on any challenge, scary.

Mm-hmm. And it can be scarier or a little daunting. And it made me feel like it's, it's all gonna be all right. You know? And that's, that's a good feeling to leave with.

Jena Dunay: Yeah.

David Rice: Um, all right. We've got about 20 minutes to go, so I do wanna open it up to audience questions. We had a, a comment in the chat and it said, in my experience, people do not provide real feedback because if they have not felt heard, what will change or.

They don't wanna burn bridges. So how can you sort of, I guess, get that person to open up a [00:40:00] little bit and trust you in that moment when maybe that's been broken in the past?

Roxanne Laczo: Yeah, I, I think some of this goes back to, as a leader in an organization, you have to create this from the point where this person's a candidate, right?

So like, if you haven't created that kind of psychological safety or willingness to give open feedback, you're not gonna get it at the end. So I think like you actually have to start way before that conversation starts. I know it's like easier said than done, uh, right. But I also think that, you know, as leaders who are, are collecting or looking at this data, you actually have to demonstrate to the employees like what it is you're doing with it, to the point that's made around, you know, nobody ever acts on this data.

Why do I keep giving this data? As leaders, we actually need to start embedding this in our conversations and our, you know, strategy meetings and our team meetings around like, here's some of the things we learned and here's some of the things we're practically. Gonna start doing about it. So I think it's like a really, can be a really big al change for people.

This is not complicated. This is absolutely not rocket science to take [00:41:00] feedback, make actions, and communicate those actions based off of it.

Jena Dunay: Yeah, I mean, I think it's hard. I think, I think if, if the, if you're coming up against someone who doesn't wanna give that feedback, that is data in and of itself, right?

That gives you data that something has been amiss. And why don't they feel comfortable? That's more the question. I feel like you're not gonna, at that point to Roxanne's point, you're, you're not gonna be able to get information from them. It's not like I, I can give you three words and magically they'll, oh, now you, now you get it.

Let me tell you all the info. They're not gonna do that. So instead use that as a data point to be like, okay, what has broken down? Where is it breaking down? And why don't they feel comfortable towards the end to really share that information? Um, and using that throughout your process.

David Rice: Excellent. All right.

We have another question and it says, uh, besides following up with, can you tell me more about that? I struggle asking follow up questions to dive deeper in an ex exit interview. What tips do you have for helping overcome this? [00:42:00]

Roxanne Laczo: So I think asking what questions. And so I, I have a background in coaching as well.

I do that kind of on the side. And there's this concept in, in some streams of coaching about, called powerful questions. Powerful questions always start with a what? It's not a why, it's not a how, it's like a what, right? So I would follow up with something about like, well, you know, what was it about that experience that wasn't, wasn't great?

You know, what could have made that experience better? So kind of just leaving like really open-ended. And I, you know, I, I talk about this a lot when we talk about employee experience survey action planning, you, you're not asking people why did you score this 50 out of a hundred? You're saying, what does a hundred look like?

So think about kind of flipping the dial to make it like a non-threatening thing. It's like a what if scenario, kind of like big picture. Like what if X would've happened, what would you have? Would your experience have been different based on that?

Jena Dunay: Yeah, getting agreement on definitions is, is really crucial to really understanding what the data looks like.

So if somebody says, I, I want career development, tell me what career development means to you. What [00:43:00] practically did that look like? What did you expect to happen? And then it didn't happen, right? And so it's, it's getting, understanding the definitions of what somebody means by, well, the culture wasn't very good.

All of those, it means something different to every single person because people's motivations look differently. And so typically, if you are, if we are training from that, that manager effectiveness standpoint to understand the motivations of each employee, you may have an idea based off of the data that you might collect as you're managing those folks.

But, but as you get farther down in, in, in the, in the process, really understanding who they are, what they're about, and their motivations is gonna give you more context, as I mentioned before, around what's important as you're offboarding.

David Rice: Absolutely. I always think it's, you know, it's a, you kind of want it to be a conversation that way that they feel mm-hmm.

That level of comfort and safety that you're talking about. And part of that is just really taking interest in something that they said and, and kind of saying, you know, like, what did you feel when that happened? Or what, what was your first impression when that occurred? You know, like that kind of thing [00:44:00] because yeah, it's, it's almost like just having a conversation with a friend, right.

That level of care. And even though you're not friends necessarily, it's, it, it makes them feel disarmed essentially. So I think that just showing up like that and kind of. Like the powerful questions, the, the, the level of comfort with each other will, will make a huge difference. Um, it's also,

Jena Dunay: one more thing I do wanna say, it just came to my brain, is missed expectations, right?

So it's like somebody's expectation of what something's gonna look like and then what it actually shows up being. So asking them, what is your expecta, what was your expectation coming into this? And what actually happened will give you even more of that context. So it just popped into my brain. I wanna make sure I didn't forget it.

David Rice: Alright, well, uh, wanna show the results of the poll real quick? So we'll put those up on the screen. Uh, only one person that's attended today is very confident in their offboarding process, that their offboarding process surfaces actionable insights. So that's, uh, I think that tells a big story. Um.

[00:45:00] Somewhat confident means, I think a lot of you are trying to push in this right, in this direction, and you're probably doing a lot of really good things, but maybe just missing a tool or something like that that could, uh, put you over the top. So hopefully we can, uh, develop, identify some things that will help you and I develop that something, uh, in the next session.

But I want to go on to, uh, some other audience questions that we have. So, um, this one was actually submitted to me in advance. Full transparency. Okay. So we often get the same feedback during offboarding, but leadership doesn't take the data seriously enough to invest resources into actual solutions. How do I date?

How can I make the data more visible and motivate leadership to take action on it?

Roxanne Laczo: Well, that's the easy question, easy answer, just. It's a challenge, right? And it's, it's a challenge. I've, I've certainly faced in almost every, um, organization I've worked for, and not even around offboarding, just think about kind of any sort of measurement.

Mm-hmm. [00:46:00] And I think if you can, and I know this, again, this is easier said than done, the extent to which you can link it to actual outcome data, right? So our, our top talent, our top female talent, or people from critical talent groups, are they sending single signals to you? Are they leaving at higher rates?

Like, how can you take the data and the information about people who are leaving and correlate it back to things that are important to leaders, right? So like, if you're, if you're in a, a coding company and all your, your best engineers are leaving, like, what's going on with that? So I think the extent to which you can link it to that, if you can link it to hard dollars.

So if you're high performing sales, um, people are leaving and you can link that to revenue lost and then bring in like cost to rehire. Um, again, it's not easy to do, but kind of what I've found is to really get the hook on people is to link it to. Some sort of outcome metric that matters to the leaders, that's when you kind of flip that dial and get their attention.

And so when I, when I worked at this large retail organization, uh, based in the us, one of the things we used to do with this survey data [00:47:00] was correlate it to financial data. And we're actually able to show the impact of like a five point increase in X, Y, Z on the survey led to like an X point increase in actual revenue at the store.

And so that really got them engaged all of a sudden. Right? So the extent to which you can do that, I think is a really, really big win.

Jena Dunay: Yeah, I wouldn't have a lot to add honestly. Uh, when I, when I'm kind of coaching a, a people leader through, Hey, what do you do with this data? We wanna make some impact.

Change is not really happening from the top. It's really thinking about what does the top care about and they care about. Making money, saving money or taking things off their plate. And so anytime you can attribute whatever you're doing on the, on the people side with the data to back it up, that that streamlined straight to one of those three things I found it's at least a more productive conversation and it almost provides you with, Hey, this is my business case of why this is gonna be beneficial to the organization and your goals.

Um, it's always just a better conversation, but obviously still challenging nonetheless.

David Rice: [00:48:00] Alright, we've got another one here. It says, we've seen success with our one-to-one program where managers must meet with their team members on a weekly basis, but some managers push back saying that their teams don't need it or perform well without it.

Have you come across pushback like this from managers and how would you address it?

Roxanne Laczo: So. So something we did recently, uh, and I've done in other companies is when we do our, our big surveys, we add in a question around frequency and quality of one-on-ones with managers. And guess what? You can correlate that to all sorts of interesting things that're gonna let the managers know whether people need more or less or whether you're doing a good job of it.

So I think the answer is like, I, I understand why some companies have those mandates, but the reality is it depends, which is kind of like a non-answer, but it's actually the answer. Some people do need those touch bases very frequently. I probably meet with my team like five times a week, formally and informally, just because we work really closely together.

That's the nature of the work we do. But there are [00:49:00] some people that you don't need that freaking of a touchpoint, but here's the, here's the solution. Ask the person and have the conversation, Hey, you know, we're supposed to have weekly one-on-ones. Are those working for you? What's not working for you?

Right? Like, have the conversation and ask what's really meaningful like that. What you don't wanna do is over index on meeting so often that it becomes micromanaging, right? And there's lots of information and data on there. You really have to kind of have that interaction with your team individual basis to figure out what is the sweets point for, uh, for, for me, understanding what you're working on, what you need help on, where you need my support versus like, just let me go do my job.

It's a balance.

Jena Dunay: I think from a cadence perspective, it, it really is individual to the manager and the, and the individual. And it's also what's the purpose behind the one-on-one? Is the one-on-one designed to be those catch ups of, Hey, this is what's been going on, or is it a career development opportunity for, Hey, let's talk about you, let's talk about your career goals.

It's a very different conversation. And so what we typically coach, what we do outplacement, but we also [00:50:00] do, um, manager cohorts where we call it the real world manager. It's all about what do you actually practically do not theory. And one of the practical things that we recommend is that if the cadence that works for their team is a weekly basis, three of those should be, Hey, what's going on?

And then one of those should be a career development. Hey, how are you feeling? What's going on? What are your goals? And so that it kind of breaks it up a little bit and isn't just, Hey, I'm micromanaging you on this task, but hey, I'm also really investing in you, which allows you to get those data points so that you can understand, hey, are they at risk for leaving?

And it's not just process related.

Roxanne Laczo: Yeah, I, I will add one more thing in. If you're kind of on the more sophisticated side, if you're looking at activity, data or network analysis, that's gonna be really critical if you're that, to look at what is the impact of manager activity and interaction with individuals and teams and others outside of your teams to really get a sense of kind of effective managers or not.

So the extent that that's possible in your organization can be really powerful tool. [00:51:00]

David Rice: All right. Now everybody's, we're in the AI era now, right? So everybody's tying in a little bit of AI into their work. They're learning where to apply it. And I'm curious, you know, what is sort of the role AI can play in offboarding and where is that sort of ethical line, line, what, you know, what do you think offboarding might look like two to three years from now with AI integrated into the process?

Jena Dunay: I probably have some strong feelings on this. Well let out specifically on if for the involuntary, um, I'm, I'm not gonna speak to the voluntary 'cause I think there's a lot of opportunity potentially there. Um, but for involuntary, if specifically for outplacement or if you're using a third party provider, if they are touting that they're using we, A-F-A-I-F-I and everything, I would say run or question at least at the very least.

Because when you are letting somebody go, they don't want to be, be. Let go and then be given a bot [00:52:00] to deal with. They wanna be given a human. So we have made a stance that we will, the first interaction that somebody has with our brand, with our outplacement to be the soft place to really conduct layoffs with dignity.

A real human will be interacting with them. And I am leaning heavily into that because that's what people need and that's gonna create better employee experience. Um, it's gonna create a, it's just gonna be more ethical all around. Now are we incorporating AI on the backend and making things more efficient and utilizing those tools to supplemental?

Absolutely. That's really smart to do as a business person, but as a human handling offboarding, I think we need to be very careful how we utilize it in the layoff process. And I'll just leave it at that.

Roxanne Laczo: Absolutely. I think from a more of a voluntary perspective. Yeah. Like AI can and should be used to automate processes, right?

Make sure that people are getting the, the forms, the information, all that kind of stuff. So AI can be really good that way. I think it can also be really good for like [00:53:00] customized exit journeys. Mm-hmm. So your exit is gonna look different if you are, uh, an, an account executive, if you're an engineer, if you're an HR generalist, right?

So how can you use AI to kind of, maybe enable a more custom journey is part of it. And then I think it's less about like, AIing, the offboarding process and, but versus using all the data and information you have, and maybe it's a predictive or machine learning model and a sentiment analysis to track those points back to our friend, the employee lifecycle.

Tracking those points in a model to give you those leading indicators of the likelihood that someone's gonna mm-hmm. And I don't mean on an individual basis, like, oh, R Roxanne went to LinkedIn and looked at a job. So that means, right. It's really more around. Like r Roxanne didn't have one-on-ones with her team for the last, like four months, uh, four weeks in a row.

You know, like Roxanne hasn't been having as many, uh, meetings with people outside the organization or whatever it is. Right? So kind of looking at what are the data points. So we always, that we already track, throw them into a model and use that model to give you some predictive insights about what the [00:54:00] likelihood of onboarding is likely to be.

David Rice: Now my last question to you is, is I'm gonna stay with the AI theme just for a second here. If I was developing a prompt to put into ai, right, and it was, I wanna help have it help me analyze the exit data that we have, what are the key points I need to hit in that prompt to frame it for the AI to tell me the most that it can?

Again, like you were like, I only have simple questions. You know,

Roxanne Laczo: so, so something I, I would think about, and it's something we touched on earlier on, is. Like you have to, you have to say in that prompt, like take a very human-centric individual approach to X, Y, Z. So I think really make it from like the perspective of like the person first.

Jena Dunay: Yeah. I would also tell AI to be mean to me. Like, give me the feedback I need to hear, because sometimes AI can be a little bit like kind in some of the feedback that they've synthesized back, I have [00:55:00] found. Mm-hmm. And so being like take the, the hardest approach to it, um, I think is really, uh, a very like practical thing.

I am not by any means an AI expert, a prompt expert by any stretch of the imagination, but I have found personally that when I'm analyzing large swaths of data, it can be a little bit too kind in its feedback.

David Rice: Yeah.

Jena Dunay: The other day, CH DBT is always boosting my ego. Yes, exactly.

David Rice: No. The other day Claude told me that I was absolutely brilliant.

Yeah. And I was like, okay, you need to calm down. But, um, okay. No, that's good. That's good. That's good context. And of course we do. Uh, oh, well, somebody asked here, uh, what are some good AI tools in your opinion, if either of you have used AI in this?

Roxanne Laczo: I, I mean for basic tool, Chad, GPT or Gemini, if used correctly, can be very powerful for almost every, but you need to understand the different models and the different features, which there's, there's tons of like really simple quick training courses.

You go in [00:56:00] there, but either those tools will give you what you need for most of the things that you need to do on a daily basis.

Jena Dunay: Yeah, I would agree. And, and I would say that I, again, I'm very hesitant to use, I say this with a grain of salt. I'm very hesitant to use like a chat GBT to like write an offboarding email for this person.

But where it could be helpful is here's my offboarding email that I'm planning to send. How do I humanize this more? Or just to be a sparring partner to give you ideas, or this is their personality type. A lot of organizations take, you know, person like their, the MBTI or whatever, how do I say this in a way that's gonna be most receptive to them.

So, uh, just slight nuances there. We've had some success with some organizations that have done that, but by no means should you just say Chachi bt give me the, you know, exact template that I should use. It's really ineffective.

David Rice: All right. Well we are approaching time. We've only got one minute left. So I wanna say thank everybody for joining us today.

Uh, this was great chat and take a second to fill out the feedback survey that is in the, in the chat so we can, you know. [00:57:00] Learn from what you thought of today's session. You can let us know. Uh, if there's a topic you'd like to submit for us to cover in the future, definitely let us know. And of course, a big thing like full or a big thanks to Roxanne and Jena for being here today for volunteering your time.

Uh, we appreciate it so much. So thank you for sharing your expertise with us today.

Jena Dunay: Awesome. Thanks for having us.

David Rice: All right. And have a great rest of your day everyone.