The Fine Art of Letting Go: RIFs, Retention, and Rebuilding Trust with Melissa Plett, Felicia Shakiba, and Jessica Martinez

[00:00:00] [00:00:10] Recording here all back off. We've got a bunch of folks in the waiting room already, so we're gonna push this over and invite folks in and I'll pass it over to David to kick us off.

David Rice: Excellent. All right, well, uh,

welcome everybody. This is, um, the latest in our ongoing series of events and panel discussions with people managing people.

And I'm happy to have you here today for [00:00:20] the Fine Art of Letting Go rifs Retention and Rebuilding Trust. We've got a really good panel, uh, joining us today that I'm excited to talk to. Um, I'm gonna kind of run [00:00:30] us through the, you know, usual housekeeping things real quick, but before I do, uh, two things, one, put in the chat where you're joining us from.

We always love to see where people are tuning in from. [00:00:40] Uh, and the other thing is Michael, uh, is our producer. He's gonna put up a poll for you and it's just kinda asking about, you know, uh, rifs this year. Are you planning one? [00:00:50] Uh, so just please just let us know what, you know, we're kind of kinda gauging, uh, people's interest in this topic.

Uh. I'm gonna kind of, I just wanna [00:01:00] say, you know, obviously welcome to everybody. Uh, it's always good to have us here. My name is David Rice. I'm the executive editor of People Managing People. And, uh, before we, you know, really kick things off, um, I. Just wanna run through the housekeeping stuff real quick.

So this session is being recorded and will be available shortly afterwards. Uh, we might use clips from it, from our social on our website or social channels, but don't worry, your camera and microphones are off by default, so you will not appear in any of those recordings. Uh, the chat also won't appear in the recording, so, you know, please continue to use the chat to share anything your thoughts.

Uh, let us know if you disagree or agree with anything we're saying. All that kind of stuff. And don't worry about it showing up in the recorded version of the video, which will go out to everybody afterwards. This will be available for you to watch. Um, so I'll be, you know, asking some questions of our speakers here for a little bit, uh, some things that we've chatted about beforehand.

And then we're gonna open it up to q and a for the last 15 to 20 minutes so that you all can ask your questions, uh, to them at that time. But also feel if you have a question that's timely. It's about something that we're talking about. Feel free to post it in the, either the q and a function or the chat.

We're gonna be keeping an eye on it, and we will try to answer those, uh, as quickly as we can. So, um, with all that said, uh, today's session is, like I said, the fine art of letting go. Uh, we're [00:01:10] gonna be talking about reductions in force, retention, rebuilding trust, and I wanna introduce our panel. First up we have Melissa Palette.

Uh, Mel is the founder of [00:01:20] Cordelia Consulting. It's a firm that helps organizations transform workplaces into spaces where people can, uh, people and profit thrive together. She's also the co-host of your work friends. [00:01:30] It's a podcast I've had the privilege of appearing on, so definitely check it out. Uh, it's globally ranked podcast in the top 5% where she and her co-host, who you might remember [00:01:40] from a previous event, Francesca Ranieri.

They deliver practical real talk conversations with workplace sex, try to help employees and leaders stay ahead. So [00:01:50] no.

Melissa Plett: Nice to be here.

David Rice: Awesome. Uh, next up we have Felicia Shakiba. She's the founder, CEO and podcast host of the C-E-O-C-P-O [00:02:00] Playbook. Uh, it's a consultancy. She serves on the advisory boards of, uh, Y Combinator, extern, uh, and other consultants, as well as [00:02:10] the Harvard, uh, uh, business Review Advisory Council.

So, Shaki, uh, Alicia, welcome. Uh, you on mute? [00:02:20]

Felicia Shakiba: Oh, I said thank you. It's great to be here.

David Rice: Oh, excellent. All right. And then finally, last but not least, we have Jessica Martinez. She is the founder of Tomorrow's [00:02:30] office. It's a consultancy that helps companies create workplaces that empower employees to do their best work while living their best lives.

Jessica, welcome.

Jessica Martinez: [00:02:40] Great to be here with you, David. Thanks.

David Rice: Awesome. Um, as I'm really looking forward to this conversation, 'cause it's obviously very timely, uh, the market right now, we [00:02:50] are seeing a lot of layoffs happen, right? Especially in sectors like tech, uh, and SaaS lost some folks assuming that AI can do things that it can't, having [00:03:00] to backpedal.

Uh, we've seen the news about Klarna and Duolingo in recent weeks and so there's a lot of, um, uncertainty and there's a lot of economic [00:03:10] uncertainty that's also driving some of this. So between sort of the competing factors, uh, that's driving this, what we [00:03:20] wanted to get into, what this discussion was, kind of how to do these reductions in force, responsibly, intelligently, uh, and in ways that respect people, which is [00:03:30] obviously everyone here's main priority.

So I'm gonna start here and I wanna talk about some examples of where. You all, because everybody [00:03:40] in this chat is doing fractional work. You're working closely with organizations who are in some cases going through these things and you've seen [00:03:50] examples of it done well and done poorly. And I wanna start with some of the horror stories and kind of get them on the table, uh, that you've seen.

And I'm [00:04:00] Mel, from your perspective, uh, uh, I'll start with you. What are some of the examples you've seen go really wrong with reductions in force?

Melissa Plett: I mean, [00:04:10] reductions in force are a part of business, unfortunately. Mm-hmm. Um, and there is a humane way to handle them in an inhumane way. I think, um, some of the trends that we're hearing [00:04:20] about, not only from individuals who reach out to us and listeners, um, but things that we see in the news are companies that blame reductions in force on performance.

[00:04:30] Right. Which is inhumane because that sets people up to fail when they're looking for a new opportunity. For example, uh, companies that don't offer severance packages to keep people whole while [00:04:40] they find a new opportunity, especially in this tough job market, lack of transparency and communication about what's happening.

So it starts to feel like the Hunger Games, um, within an [00:04:50] organization. You start to kind of see those things happening and then you hear about the layoffs. Those are just some of the, the top things that I'm hearing about right now or seeing. [00:05:00]

David Rice: And Felicia, I'm curious from your perspective, you know, so you've been doing this a while.

Yeah, unfortunately.

Michael Mordak: Uh, [00:05:10] yeah. Well, no, but

David Rice: you've, you've seen it from before. It was like in this kind of wild modes a bit. I'm curious your perspective.

Felicia Shakiba: Um, an organization I was working [00:05:20] with and we were doing, you know, selection around who we thought, um. Was going to exit. And [00:05:30] the selection process when they started was like, who the CEO like didn't like.

And I was like, stop, please stop. Um, I'm like, we really need to [00:05:40] identify using, you know, data using, um, you know, looking at how people, um, you know, how the organization is going to [00:05:50] change, what are the needs for our clients and, um, how we're going to restructure. I mean, it was, it was, you know, some, a coaching experience for the [00:06:00] leadership team, but had they, you know, not sought out, um, advice from from CPO playbook.

[00:06:10] I think that they would've had a really hard time afterwards pretty much letting go key people that they were going to let go. And so I, I think that the, the [00:06:20] selection process, kind of to what Mel was talking about earlier is really key, very important to understanding what the business needs are, [00:06:30] um, in order to move forward.

Because if you choose the wrong people or you choose people that are in a function that you absolutely do need, you could be losing skills, [00:06:40] the cost to regain those skills. And I'm, you know, I'm really just speaking from an organizational perspective. There's obviously the perspective of the individuals as well, but from an organizational [00:06:50] standpoint, there is a strategy in place.

There's a reason why you're doing it. And if you do it the wrong way, you're really breaking a lot of trust and that is very [00:07:00] costly. Um, post exit, you know, as people, um, or as organizations, let people go. There is a lot of rebuilding of trust that [00:07:10] needs to happen. And if people don't trust your decisions or how you let them go in, in a, like you said, humane way, um, people are just going to sit there and [00:07:20] wondering when they're next engagement drops and so forth.

So I think that the process and how you do it, your methodology and, and, and the way you do things is really, really [00:07:30] important.

David Rice: Absolutely. And Jessica, I wanted to get your point of view on this as well. 'cause I know you've been, uh, you've, you've seen a few up [00:07:40] close and personal.

Jessica Martinez: Yeah. And you know, obviously echoing what Mel and Felicia had said, I mean, first of all, even having a selection process, I think one of the more, [00:07:50] uh.

Disturbing examples we've seen potentially lately has been the US federal Government in terms of there being a, even there [00:08:00] being a questionable, even there being a selection process at all, consideration of what rules are, uh, no longer necessary or could be, you know, could be [00:08:10] eliminated. Uh, the impact of losing those roles.

I mean, certainly doing the actual strategic work, as Felicia mentioned, is step one. But sometimes I think [00:08:20] the horror stories are in the small moments. Uh, it's not even in the big pieces. So for instance, uh, the person who unexpectedly gets the call, put on [00:08:30] their calendar at eight 30 in the morning, and then while in the middle of that call, all of their access is shut off to every single thing, um, they now, they can't, they might have had some personal photos or whatnot.[00:08:40]

Uh, the fact that, uh. The toxic positivity that might come from the people who are left behind. We're like, okay, that was really difficult, but now look at we're all [00:08:50] gonna have a party and we're gonna move forward. Trying to just quickly move forward, uh, move the organization forward without any thought around, uh, acknowledging the moment, the [00:09:00] impact and the remaining uncertainty that's left for people left behind.

Uh, not to mention all of us, I am sure at one point or another if we have not personally been [00:09:10] impacted either by having to, uh, lay someone off or being laid off, I have had both, or knowing somebody who has so many of those folks are [00:09:20] incredible talent. They are top performers. These are truly business decisions that require a restructuring or uh, a correction.

And you wanna maintain that great relationship with them. [00:09:30] And unfortunately, these little steps that you take. Uh, absolutely create, take a business decision and create a brand and trust issue instead. So I, I think it's [00:09:40] sometimes those tiny moments of the script, the lack of access, the everybody get back to work, we're all great.

Uh, the lack of clarity on goals for people remaining behind on [00:09:50] how they're going to continue to deliver with less resources. Uh, those things, those things are hard and they're not helpful.

David Rice: You brought up something there that I, I found [00:10:00] really interesting. You mentioned the toxic positivity part. I think, you know, especially if you've put in a lot of work on like the employer brand, there can be a little bit of pressure sometimes from leadership to kind of be like, you know, [00:10:10] we gotta get them acting or kind of behaving a certain way or, or wanting to change the narrative too quickly, really.

And I'm curious, you know, how have [00:10:20] you kind of dealt with that in the past, if you've seen that, and what is sort of the, the typical window of recovery time, so to speak, would you [00:10:30] say?

Jessica Martinez: Yeah, I certainly, I think it depends on the scope and the size, um, of the impact for sure. But I, I'd say the first and most important point [00:10:40] here is more often than not, what I have seen, uh, organizations do that is a pretty significant, I'd say misstep, is they create a transition and a [00:10:50] communication plan that goes up to the moment of the actual conversation and nothing beyond that.

So there's not the, okay, now we've had this moment, we have [00:11:00] one now communication and engagement plan for those employees who are transitioning out of the organization. Here is the communication and engagement plan for the employees. Uh, come, you know, who are [00:11:10] going to be remaining at the organization and creating goals for yourself around when are we going to, um, expect to kind of transition fully?

What are we going to be saying in between, [00:11:20] what, what are we gonna pause on? Maybe we are not going to do that. Earth Day celebration in the same with the same pop and wow. Right. That doesn't feel, um, read the [00:11:30] temperature of the room, that doesn't feel appropriate. Uh, but I think one of the most important parts in there is that I do see value in the organization as a whole [00:11:40] beginning to start shifting towards the future.

But the managers and the direct line leaders continuing to have some of those direct conversations on checking in with the team. [00:11:50] And those things though, have to be planned out in advance. Those conversations, uh, need to, to happen. So what's the appropriate amount of time, David? That's so [00:12:00] hard to say. Um, certainly if it's only, you know, a one or two people right.

On a very small team, I think the larger organization could probably move forward pretty [00:12:10] quickly. But if you have a major impact, which is what we're seeing more of recently. Uh, most studies go on to show that the people who are remaining at the organization don't [00:12:20] recover from that for 18 to 24 months.

It is a long time. That doesn't mean you keep talking about it for that long, but it does mean that you need to, uh, expect that there is going to be [00:12:30] residual uncertainty, apprehension, uh, in an impact of productivity for that time.

David Rice: Yeah. Yeah, I think that, go ahead.

Felicia Shakiba: Uh, just, [00:12:40] just something to tap into that.

Um, so we use a framework called Signal Recovery that identifies and repairs trust [00:12:50] signals within the organization after a major transformation, like a restructuring. And it's really key and important to first understand exactly [00:13:00] where those, um, trust signals are coming from and like why they are broken.

And then be able to narrow in on, you know, the top [00:13:10] two or three things. Because essentially the company is going through not just a, a restructure around headcount, it's an identity crisis for the organization. [00:13:20] You have to rebuild psychological safety and you have to allow people to feel why they sh are important to be there and to stay.

And that [00:13:30] feeling is your competitive edge, um, that allows. Organizations to retain your top talent after something that's so heavy [00:13:40] and sometimes devastating. Their friends are leaving. Um, you know, and they're kind of like, well, am I next? You know, that is what's on their mind a lot afterwards. [00:13:50] Right. And for how long?

Could be 18 to 24, however many months. But, um, to speed that up faster, understanding and identifying those signals [00:14:00] is critical to your strategy.

Melissa Plett: I just wanna add on to that, uh, to Jessica and Felicia's point. Um, Gallup [00:14:10] came out with a report, I believe, last year. It typically is 18 to 24 months. But what they're finding now, um, is there are moments where it never occurs. You'd never [00:14:20] bounce back. There are. Situations where organizations don't bounce back, but it's because they don't approach it in this strategic fashion.

Felicia, I love that whole signal concept, [00:14:30] um, for them to consider because it means they have the opportunity to bounce back. 'cause what we know is for productivity alone after a layoff, even if it's two people on a team, [00:14:40] there's typically almost a, a 75% drop in productivity within an organization because people just feel deflated.

And that's just human nature, right? [00:14:50] So, and if you handle it really well, you have a better opportunity to save your employee value proposition, your culture, and you don't destroy, you know, the future of [00:15:00] obtaining new talent.

David Rice: This is, it is such a tough question, right? 'cause it's not like we're talking about concrete data or like a, just like a calculation you can make that's like, [00:15:10] plug in these pieces and here's an answer.

So it's, it's so much, uh, context and judgment based. But one thing we do have data for is the poll. [00:15:20] So let's pop that up on screen, Michael. And, uh, let's, let's take a look here. So, uh, 36% of the audience, you know, is, uh, planning over [00:15:30] reduction in forces. This, this year in 2025, um, 32%, no, but 23% has a feeling that they are, [00:15:40] um, these numbers not too surprising, right?

Yeah. Um, so, all right, Mo kind of moving the, the [00:15:50] conversation forward, I, I wanna look at some examples that you all have seen where you felt like I. Obviously a riff is unpleasant, but that was probably [00:16:00] as good as you could have done in the context or in the scenario. What are some one, uh, examples that you've seen where leadership has really stepped up to the plate and executed in a way that, [00:16:10] you know, I the people who are left behind can feel a sense of trust still, or a sense of that, you know, the, the organization is still moving in the right [00:16:20] direction?

Um, Felicia, you wanna start?

Felicia Shakiba: Sure. I, I mean, I, I think that, um, [00:16:30] transparency, you know, adaptive and transparent leadership is probably one of the best predictors of organizational success, just overall in general. [00:16:40] In light of a major transformation, like a restructure, I think that still applies and probably applies more heavily.

People want to [00:16:50] understand why should I stay when I'm so worried about myself after this, you know, after many people and my colleagues that I trust can't trust, you know, didn't, [00:17:00] weren't able to trust you. Um, that's the question that people are asking. And so I think for leadership to continue and talk about [00:17:10] here's what we're going to do with the workforce that stays, you know, a lot of organization I.

Organizations, they, they take away, you know, leadership development or training [00:17:20] when they should really be doubling down, I think, on, on this piece. Um, because they're signaling to people who are there and saying, we [00:17:30] want to invest in you. We understand your role might have changed. We understand that some people might have more responsibility, and now we need to give you, you know, something [00:17:40] to be, um, to prepare for this new way of working.

And so again, doubling down on leadership development and making sure [00:17:50] that people who have those new roles, understand their responsibilities, have the skill sets to do it. That is a big, um, wonderful, beautiful [00:18:00] signal that I would say that leadership would take in order to make sure people are, know that they're here for, um, you know, the organization is there for them to invest in.

Michael Mordak: [00:18:10] Mm-hmm.

Melissa Plett: I would just add, David, you know, the one example we covered on, um, your work [00:18:20] friends was HubSpot a few years ago, who I think was an exceptional leader in the space of how do you handle RRIFs in a humane [00:18:30] fashion. Um, back in 2023, they had to do a massive reduction in their workforce. But what they did that was different is humane packages, right?

[00:18:40] They gave a five month severance plus a week of pay for every year that you'd been with the organization. They let people keep all of their computer and technology equipment. They gave them [00:18:50] packages for coaching, for resume support, for job search support. Um, they promoted those people to say, these are really good people.

They put that out [00:19:00] there for others to gain that talent in other places, like they actually promoted that, I would say your. Current existing workforce that wasn't impacted by [00:19:10] the rif, they're paying attention to how you handle that for the rest of the organization that was impacted by the rif. So if you don't handle that well in a humane way, it's gonna be very hard [00:19:20] to retain that talent.

Agree 100%. With Felicia's sentiment about doubling down on leadership development. Always. We need that, having the right people in the right roles at the [00:19:30] right time. Um, but one of the big mistakes that we often see too is in that strategic upfront piece, um, when they're sort of throwing darts [00:19:40] at a dart board on who gets let go and the direct team leads are not involved in the conversation and they're even surprised by who they're losing and they don't have [00:19:50] that time to kind of talk about how are we redistributing the work?

Are we redistributing the work? What's important now? Right? So. I, I love Felicia's signal [00:20:00] recovery approach because these are such important things to have and that's that when people do these things, then we see that it's done really well.[00:20:10]

Jessica Martinez: I mean, I can't echo enough, um, what Mel is saying because I do think when this is done. [00:20:20] The best it can be, right? Difficult moments. Done as, as well as we can. How you treat those who are being separated. It's not [00:20:30] only how you maintain trust with them and a desire to return, but it's the people internally as well as the potential talent, right?

Someone who's [00:20:40] never worked at your company before, but you might want to recruit. You are sending signals to them as well, um, about what you value, how they will be treated, what they can expect, [00:20:50] uh, such that we all know that these types of moments are unavoidable as part of business. They do happen from time to time and sometimes they are necessary.

Uh, and, but people [00:21:00] want to trust that you will take care of them in those moments because they have contributed and given the best work that they can in the time that they were there. Uh, I think that's really important. I think it's also why, [00:21:10] uh, when these moments of tying rifts to performance is incredibly damaging from a trust and a brand perspective is because.

[00:21:20] To criticize in public is essentially the exact opposite of empathetic leadership, right? That is a cornerstone of empathetic leadership is to praise in public and to critique [00:21:30] and give feedback in private where a person can respond with dignity, uh, and create a, a path forward. So that's where, that's I think, a really difficult side.

Things that I think [00:21:40] also are done really well, um, beyond, you know, as Mel mentioned, like the, the packages and the transparency that Felicia [00:21:50] mentioned is also a very simple thing of having conversations with folks who are impacted, remaining about who has left and what's going to [00:22:00] change quickly. Uh, I think companies have this really strange, bizarre thing, whether it's Arif or something else, where somebody leaves and they act, they're like.[00:22:10]

We're not gonna tell anybody who's gone. So you show up at a meeting and suddenly people are gone and you're like, what happened? Where is this work? [00:22:20] Those very small things of communicating what is going on, right? Um, personal story really quickly. My mother was a labor and delivery nurse, which [00:22:30] is a wonderful career because you're bringing life into this world.

But obviously in those moments, um, when it's not wonderful, it's pretty, it's pretty hard. And what she, I learned from her with that is that she delivers [00:22:40] difficult information anywhere in life, very clinically. I have something I need to tell you that's really difficult. This is what has happened. Here's [00:22:50] where we are now.

This is what is gonna happen next. And it always ends with how are you? Do you have a question? Do you have questions? How can, what do you need right now? Right? [00:23:00] That type of builds trust, right? It's the not avoiding the conversation. It's not, it's going on LinkedIn saying, we had to make a really difficult decision today.

Here [00:23:10] are people, anyone who needs help, we can support you, right? Those types of things stop ignoring what happened. It acknowledges it's difficult as well as required or [00:23:20] necessary at this moment. Like wonders, wonders. People remember that like Mal, I don't know if you worked for HubSpot, but you remember those things.

You remember those companies [00:23:30]

Melissa Plett: you do, and it's the don't read off a script. That's the worst thing you could possibly do. We're all human beings treat us humanely.

David Rice: [00:23:40] It, they'd rather you fumble and bumble through it and, and maybe even experience an emotion or two.

Melissa Plett: Right. Or, and make sure that people know this isn't a reflection of their value, [00:23:50] their skillset, their self-worth.

This is a business decision. This isn't a performance issue. That's why it kills me. And I know, you know, we've talked about this before, [00:24:00] um, as a group, but it kills me when I see that in, in the news, when they say performance is the cause of this layoff. No, it's not. It's a, it's a strategic issue for a number of different reasons.[00:24:10]

David Rice: We're gonna get a little bit into that. Uh, so some current trends going on in the riff landscape. Right. So, James had put a question in the chat, I do wanna touch on this one. It said, any [00:24:20] thoughts on companies doing voluntary rounds first to avoid compulsory redundancies? And it, like, I saw the Microsoft news a few weeks ago when they sort of [00:24:30] said that you can take a pip or you can just leave and I'm, I'm curious what you all's thoughts are on that.

I mean, in some ways [00:24:40] I can see what, what with what Microsoft is doing. I mean, having experienced having colleagues that went on a pip or even, you know, myself at one point, it [00:24:50] did not feel as though there was any investment in my actual performance improvement. That it was really just a, we were doing an exercise till I got the notice.

And I [00:25:00] think a lot of people feel that way. Right. And so I guess I can understand where they're coming from with that. Like, is that maybe just a, a quicker and easier way to do it? [00:25:10] But it also is mislabeled the intention of the exercise. Right. So what are you all's thoughts? I'm curious, Felicia, you can, I, you seem ready to jump in.

Felicia Shakiba: Yeah. [00:25:20] I, you know, I think that there's more psychological damage, um, to be done giving someone a pip and, you [00:25:30] know, the organization truly doesn't really do anything about it. Um, it's really more of like a, Hey, we're about to let you go more than a, here's, you know, [00:25:40] here's your plan and we want you to be successful and come out of this pip.

Have I seen people come out of it? Yes. But like, normally [00:25:50] no. And it's just an organization really covering their tracks. Um, like legally. Uh, I, I think, um, I think that the [00:26:00] best thing to do is give people extra time and an extra month of pay to say, you know. You're not working out [00:26:10] here, but we wanna give you the time and, and a safety net so you can go, you know, find other work that suits you, suits [00:26:20] your skills and your culture in a better way.

And I think that is much better than just stringing someone along and, um, kind of [00:26:30] humiliating them in a little bit, you know, in the sense that you've been pipped and they're going to, you know, express, um, express like how they're feeling with their friends. [00:26:40] And in the meantime they're also feeling embarrassed.

And it's just a way for. I think organ, again, like a way for organizations to cover their tracks. I think it's [00:26:50] much better to say, we already know you're not working out it. This is the best thing that we can do for you. And give them a little bit of extra time and extra pay to double down. [00:27:00] Otherwise, it's just kind of like, it's almost like a boyfriend or like a girlfriend that's that's saying to you, I might wanna be with you, but I, I might not.

And I'm like, let's just [00:27:10] rip the bandaid off. Um, it's better for that person to leave with a little more time and, and pay, um, to double down on [00:27:20] their job search is my opinion.

Michael Mordak: Any thoughts on this one?

Melissa Plett: Yeah, I was gonna say, I absolutely agree with Felicia. Like, I hate to see [00:27:30] Pips weaponized. That's not the intent of a pip. Um, I've been in organizations where they, they really were used for a performance improvement and people stayed for years [00:27:40] beyond that because the goal was to get them to succeed and a pip was the very last action for performance.

'cause they've tried everything else. Now we've, now we're here, [00:27:50] let's get here. Maybe this is more serious and you'll take it more seriously 'cause we're here, that sort of thing. But when it's weaponized, I think that's just truly evil, to be honest with you. [00:28:00] Um, in terms of voluntary, uh, layoffs where you can kind of like raise your hand as tribute, uh, I think that could be good [00:28:10] for folks who maybe they're ready to go.

Maybe they're like, yeah, I, I want to go. So this is my opportunity and I get a nice package and I can [00:28:20] leave with a caveat. Do not sign anything until you have someone who is an attorney who reviews that package because you wanna make sure [00:28:30] there are no legal implications about your 401k if you have a pension included in your package.

What, how are other things impacted? If you take this [00:28:40] early voluntary package to leave, there can be a lot of, you know, uh, things in the fine language that you don't pick up on. So don't sign [00:28:50] anything until you have an attorney review that package. Just a cautionary tale for folks who might be considering that.

Jessica Martinez: And just to [00:29:00] echo, um, the thoughts I've already been shared. I, you either are a human first organization or you are not. If a PIP is a tool to [00:29:10] simply let someone go, then you are not a human first organization. People often are put into roles where it. It may not be right fit, [00:29:20] wrong time, right? Like, think of the, there's lots of different ways to look at why someone may not be performing in the role.

Uh, there may be temporary external circumstances that are affecting [00:29:30] their performance or the performance of the team, resourcing issues. There's so many different things. So a PIP is either truly a trustworthy tool where you say, Hey, something's not working, and we're [00:29:40] gonna give you actionable feedback and we're expecting you to, to.

Act on that in this period of time so we can see that in good faith, we're both gonna be [00:29:50] successful here. Right. This is a successful relationship to, I, I just think there is no dignity in humanity and publicly tying these [00:30:00] actions to someone's performance. If we all, we all know where each other works.

You go into dinner with a friend that night and you're the person let go, they now know that you're the low performer. You are on the pi. Like [00:30:10] you have publicly embarrassed these people. You have publicly made it difficult for someone. I, there's just no, there's no humanity in that. And so I think that if there [00:30:20] is a conversation, I, I love what James is saying here.

I have been at companies that are relocating, uh, so lots of things going into that and [00:30:30] they've given anyone the opportunity up to, you know, say, Hey, there are people who just at this point say, I'm not gonna relocate. I'm going to take a package to leave. Like, I think that, that is different and [00:30:40] saying, Hey, we, we, we have a business.

Imperative. And to Mel's point, maybe you've already been reconsidering your next move and your next path, and this [00:30:50] might be a really good moment for you to take a pause, have some safety net and go make that decision. I think that's great. But when you tie to performance, um, there's, there's nothing but in [00:31:00] my opinion, uh, embarrassment and humiliation for that person in a public setting and there's nothing good about that.

David Rice: Well, that kind of leads into the next one 'cause we've all [00:31:10] seen that there's a certain, um, social media company that, uh, has labeled a lot of people under performers this year, and [00:31:20] I find it a little concerning that they're putting a lot of people outta work or laying a lot of people off first, labeling them under performers.[00:31:30]

So it's almost as if they're publicly shaming them in a lot of ways because if you came out of that, if you are a timeline on your profile, your LinkedIn profile of your resume [00:31:40] shows that you worked up until that moment. Even if you left by choice, the implication to allot somebody looking at it, because we all are aware of the situation may be that you were an [00:31:50] underperformer.

I just find the publicly labeling of a huge group of people as underperformers to be, uh, pretty wild practice. I [00:32:00] don't know about you all, uh uh, but,

Felicia Shakiba: uh, yeah, I mean, I, I, I think that's the organization, um, trying to make a, a positive [00:32:10] excuse for why they're doing it. Um, and honestly, I don't think it's, I. I, I wouldn't trust that organization all the time.

I mean, [00:32:20] you know, I think that a better way for an organization to come out is to be just super honest, [00:32:30] honestly. I mean, for them to be able to say, Hey, look, we are restructuring, we're re designing our strategy. And then the strategy is being looked at from, [00:32:40] uh, what are our skills and abilities and knowledge that we need, and then we've selected those individuals that have the capabilities in order to move forward.

I just think is a much better [00:32:50] message. Then we're just scrapping all of our low performers. I mean, if you have that many low performers. What are you doing in your performance reviews that is [00:33:00] causing you to, you know, lay off all your, uh, low performers at once? I think it's a little tricky. Um, I wouldn't trust their performance review, therefore I wouldn't wanna work for that [00:33:10] company.

So there's just so many things that would go into place. I think being honest and saying, we have redesigned our strategy, or we're going after a different strategy, [00:33:20] and the objectivity of how we're structuring our organization with the KSAs knowledge, skills, and abilities, um, lays the foundation for [00:33:30] who we want to stay and who we unfortunately need to let go.

But, but by the way, we're all taking care of those people and we're making sure that they land on their [00:33:40] feet, I think is a far better message than, than we're laying off all of our low performers. At least to me personally. I would think that that's a, that's [00:33:50] a much better way of handling communications.

Jessica Martinez: I just wanna add one more thing on this, is that I, [00:34:00] I think one way in which many companies, the reason many companies struggle through this starts way, way, way, way, way before any of these [00:34:10] conversations happen, is that they culturally do not set up their company to respond and recover from [00:34:20] these moments through the values and the culture and the transparency they use regularly.

So, for instance, companies that say like, welcome home, we're all a family. Well, I, [00:34:30] you know what? I get mad at my husband, but I'm not laying 'em off, right? Like, it's not happening. And my kids, I might lay 'em off sometimes at bedtime, but you know, they. [00:34:40] It's this idea of using, trusting an organization to say, I know this is a business relationship, right?

And, and [00:34:50] you are invested in my success because I'm talented and I have the KSAs, as Felicia mentioned, to bring value and, and customer value to your organization. And [00:35:00] sometimes in the strategy shift that's gonna shift, it's not a perspective on you, that cultural conversation that's continuously happening.

When that moment happens, people can respond [00:35:10] and be like, I'm really sad. I'm sad. My colleagues' leaving. I'm sad, I'm leaving. I'm bummed at this one. This way. I understand the decision. I even look back to when I've been laid off and I was [00:35:20] like, eh, I probably would've like eliminated my position too, that probably at this moment in time for the company wasn't the right position.

Right? And I trusted that [00:35:30] decision. I, I, I think that's where often you see that there is not enough effort and investment in creating cultures of resiliency [00:35:40] and boundaries and trust in that psychological safety that Felicia said that allow you to successfully navigate this in a truly respectful, dignified, but productive [00:35:50] way.

Melissa Plett: I'm just gonna make a bold statement in any company that's using performance as the reason for a layoff is lazy and they're not taking [00:36:00] accountability for their business strategy being the reason, I'm just gonna put it out there, 'cause performance. We hear about performance reductions that happens.

Performance [00:36:10] reductions do happen at most organizations, but it's not a typical layoff. It's people who are being counseled out due to performance issues and to Felicia's. Good [00:36:20] point. If you are doing these massive layoffs because of performance, you have larger issues within your organization. I'm on board with Jessica, but I, I just think we have to call out any org who's [00:36:30] blaming, um, performance for layoffs.

David Rice: Yeah. Well, uh, so we're approaching about 20 minutes to go. Uh, [00:36:40] I want to give everybody a chance to ask plenty of questions, so please, folks, start putting your questions in the q and a, uh, or in the chat if you want, or whichever one. [00:36:50] We will start pulling 'em out of there. I wanna start with this though, and I'm selfishly curious, right, because full transparency, I'm working on this little project.

It's like I, [00:37:00] I'm vibe coding nowadays. This is just like a new thing in my job, but, um, I, I'm making this sort of like layoff impact [00:37:10] calculator now. It's pretty theoretical, right? But, um, I'm, I've been working on sort of like the calculations and how things are weighted and challenging it a bunch and, [00:37:20] and trying to make it, you know.

Into a suitable prototype. Right. What are some of the biggest factors that you consider to be really, [00:37:30] really important when you're thinking about not only who to lay off, but how many people are gonna be involved? Uh, how many, you know, sort of, of a certain type of role or level? We're seeing a [00:37:40] ton of flattening of middle management, which I think is, when you think about how that translates down and the impact that, that may have on the culture or how things are assessed in the future, [00:37:50] all of that has an impact that you have to try to weigh in.

Right. So when you look at these, and if you were to kind of coach someone through it, how would, where would you start and what would be some of the key things that [00:38:00] you'd want them to hit on? Mel, we'll start with you.

Melissa Plett: Sorry, I'm on mute. Um, I mean, I [00:38:10] think you have to start with the business strategy. Where's your business headed? What are the skill sets that you need? Where do you, when you do that and you're evaluating your organization, what are the business units that [00:38:20] support it? What, where are there redundancies across your organization?

If you're going through a merger and acquisition, that obviously happens quite often. You have to take a look at that. But I think we always start [00:38:30] with where is the business headed and do we have the right butts in the right seats to support that strategy? Where are we having overlaps? And that's the beginning of the conversation.

It [00:38:40] always starts with the strategy.

Felicia Shakiba: And David just so, uh, answer your question. It's like, how would you coach someone [00:38:50] in going through the riff? Is that what you're saying?

David Rice: Yeah. On sort of analyzing the analysis stage and figuring out, you know, where they're gonna start.

Felicia Shakiba: Yeah. I like [00:39:00] to do this exercise. Well, first of all, Mel, I. A hundred percent strategy first.

Um, then when you know what the strategy is, the long-term goal, um, [00:39:10] is you start at the top and you tell leaders, um, imagine, you know, you only have boxes. No, people don't [00:39:20] bring any people into this exercise that are in the organization, but like. How would you structure, what are the job titles that you need in order to be successful [00:39:30] long term?

And then once you have the structure of the job titles, then you bring people's names into those buckets. What happens a lot is that people, [00:39:40] leaders will say, oh, well we, you know, we have Jane and Mike and um, you know, they compliment each other. And so I wanna keep [00:39:50] them. It's not the best way to go about it.

What I would say is, if you have one role, understand exactly what that role [00:40:00] needs, and then identify whether you have the person who has the skill sets, knowledge and abilities to fit that role. And then if you don't, you may need to actually. [00:40:10] Find someone else to, to fit all of the things that you need for one role, right?

The, the problem is, is that you're, you're compensating for [00:40:20] the skills and abilities You don't, or you do have, um, and you're not actually building the structure of the organization the way it should be. And so you're setting yourself up [00:40:30] for another riff, right? Uh, it's like, um, you, you, you may not need, uh, two people in, in one role, and so therefore, [00:40:40] later down the line, that becomes more clear and more apparent.

Start with the structure that you need and then bring the names into it and see if those [00:40:50] names fit into, you know, like those jobs, like the number of, of headcount that you need for each role and the structure that you need. I've seen. Full transformations [00:41:00] because of this exercise, um, where, you know, organizations realize, oh, they need a new leader to actually need a lead, a separate, um, [00:41:10] function that they never had before.

And we're not thinking about that because we're just trying to fit people in where they, you know, in to save headcount. That's, that is [00:41:20] just, um, causing more riffs down the line. If you do it right the first time, you are much more likely to actually build trust, because I've seen [00:41:30] organizations do a riff and then the next month they do another riff, and then the next month they do another riff, which is the worst case scenario I, that it's like, it's [00:41:40] horrifying.

It's, it's just like slaughtering and I, I couldn't even be there anymore. I was like, I can't do this. You know, it's, it's the worst feeling ever. And so I would [00:41:50] much rather, I. You know, coach a leader to say, do it right, do it the first time, and then move forward and let everyone fall, you know, go with you.

[00:42:00] So that, that's the best advice I would give.

David Rice: Yeah, that is a nightmare. So by the time you get to the end of the third one, morale is so low. I mean, it's in the basement, everybody's just living on borrowed time is what it feels like. [00:42:10]

Felicia Shakiba: Oh yeah. That's exactly how it is. And, and there is zero trust for leadership.

Zero. And it is, it is so difficult to get [00:42:20] that back. It's takes forever. And you're losing much more money as an organization, um, doing riff after riff versus just, you know, doing the riff [00:42:30] at once and then being able to, people actually trust the way you make decisions as a leader and therefore you are more likely to rebound faster.[00:42:40]

Michael Mordak: Absolutely.

Jessica Martinez: I think the couple things I would add, um, David is, um. Interdependencies. One of the things I have seen [00:42:50] quite often happen in these conversations is Mel or Felicia, you might have mentioned it about how even the, the direct manager, line manager isn't involved in the conversation, but also often [00:43:00] these happen in silos of K HR is making their decisions, marketing, legal, finance, product development versus co.

This the [00:43:10] remembering we are an ecosystem as a company with interdependencies between roles that that work cross-functionally, particularly now in an ai, you know, in an AI environment where [00:43:20] there really is a lot of cross-functional collaboration, um, and you're building these larger generative AI systems.

So I think that part is something would be so [00:43:30] important to consider is. I, I've seen it so often. They're like, well, this person, I don't know that they're more like a coordinator. I don't know that they're like, that's, we don't need that. [00:43:40] That person's like the linchpin of like seven teams getting one critical task done and now you've let them go and there is no one knows how to do it.

That part is, that is a nightmare as [00:43:50] well when that happens. And the impact of productivity, uh, not to mention morale and frustration is so significant. But another thing I will add, going back to, I'm like a big, I'm a [00:44:00] big fan of, we know these things are gonna happen at some point in your company doing the pre-work.

Mel made such a great point in the chat about the upskilling. [00:44:10] Most companies and leaders are having beginning to have the beginnings of these conversations months and months, nine months, 12 months, even before they happen. And they're starting to identify what skills are going to be [00:44:20] necessary in the future of the organization.

Start upskilling now. Start developing those people now for the opportunity to transition into a [00:44:30] new role, uh, and be part of the future organization going forward. If you know that they're likely going to be part of a team that is not going, um, to be as necessary to the [00:44:40] future success of the business, what can you start doing, uh, now, not let go of your l and d team, which is often what happens, but in, in requiring them to, um, [00:44:50] start thinking about those future skills.

Michael Mordak: Yeah, yeah. No, go ahead.

Felicia Shakiba: No, I was gonna double down on that. Kind of what I was echoing earlier was most people they [00:45:00] slash you know, learning and development and this is where they should be doubling down and making sure that people feel like they, like, um, they p [00:45:10] like the organization wants them there, right?

I mean, the first thing people think, all of the people that you think that, that are going to stay is going to think to [00:45:20] themselves. When am I next? They're not thinking even if I'm next, they're thinking, when is it gonna happen to me? And one hand is in the organization and one hand is, is now out. [00:45:30] And if you want to rebuild that trust, doubling down on learning and development, coaching, leadership, all of those things is going to [00:45:40] signal to those people, oh, they're investing in me.

They're not gonna invest of me in me if they don't want me here. And it's just a, a very quick [00:45:50] turnaround in morale. Um, in my, in my opinion, I, I've seen it work really well that strategy.

David Rice: I heard one leader recently, he was talking about, [00:46:00] uh, you know, if you've got people that you know bought into your mission, they're hard.

You know, that they're hard workers, that they perform. This is the moment to get, you see the, [00:46:10] the tidal wave coming, right? This is the moment to get them to the lifeboats, get them trained up. This is not the time to let the sea wash over them. So, um, definitely agree with that. There [00:46:20] was a question in the chat though.

Uh, I wanted to get to, I wanna make sure we get to before we run outta time. It said, working with government contractors and being faced with and forced to make mandatory [00:46:30] DEI reductions in compliance to meet contracts. How do we handle this in a fair and supportive way? It's a tough one.[00:46:40]

I don't know if anybody wants to jump in.

Jessica Martinez: That's super tough and I'm, I, if that's something you're [00:46:50] experience experiencing. And I know many people are, let me just first and foremost say I'm sorry. Like, that's a really difficult position to be in. It's painful. It is [00:47:00] unfair. I think, um,

a healthy organization has to first and foremost consider the viability, [00:47:10] um, and the solvency of the organization going forward. And if contracts are dependent on employing everyone at the organization, you are sometimes going to have to make really painful and [00:47:20] difficult decisions about needing, you know, that compliance, so many other factors will go into that.

But in those moments, I think the [00:47:30] many of the, um. The thoughts that have already been shared still truly apply, right? It still truly applies with what can you create and, and offer a humane severance [00:47:40] package. Can you set that person up for success with Mark helping them to market themselves, creating recommendations, um, continuing to keep them front of mind and engage with them as [00:47:50] opportunities open up back with the organization and hopefully sentiment around DEI and, and contract requirements shifts over time and, and, and creates a [00:48:00] cha change in that moving forward.

Um. Respect, transparency, and, um, empathy throughout those conversations is important. And I think [00:48:10] also that that's using those same three tools with the folks who are remaining behind, um, particularly giving clarity on your values. Um, that may be [00:48:20] a requirement of your contract, but it is not a, it does not change the values of your organization.

And I think it's really important for organizations to continue to have those conversations. [00:48:30] Um, to say like, sometimes, sometimes in the battle of, of advocating for your values and doing business in the way that's important for your [00:48:40] organization, um, there are gonna have to be maybe some steps backs to continue to move forward.

But, uh, so much of those things hold true and, and some painful situations are [00:48:50] just unavoidable, um, in order to keep everyone's jobs right. And so as many jobs as you can. And so, you know, that would be my advice. [00:49:00] Unfortunately, there's no. Some situations just suck. Sorry. Like they do.

David Rice: No, it's, you all have been in the [00:49:10] HR game for a while.

I used to work in DEI, we've, we've probably all watched colleagues who had DEI focused roles get eliminated and honestly it's be [00:49:20] getting, it's getting tougher for them to package it. Right. So it's, it's not, it's just a tough time for that one.

Felicia Shakiba: Yeah. I, I have a lot to say [00:49:30] about De and I, but I'm gonna try and keep this short.

There was a couple of people that I interviewed on my show and, um, one of them was the chairman board of directors [00:49:40] of Cir de Soleil and, um, he's so amazing. I love him. Uh, Daniel Lamar, he wrote a wonderful book, by the way. Um, but my [00:49:50] point is, is that there was a point in my conversation with him, we were talking about diversity and he was saying, he's like, we've never had to focus on de and [00:50:00] I.

He's like, we, that, that wasn't really built into our business. He's like, we had the, we have the most diverse and creative organization in the [00:50:10] world. Everyone comes from all walks of life, all perspectives. That's what makes us in, makes us innovative and creative. [00:50:20] And, um, I was, I I, that to me was, um, it made so much sense as I was speaking to him, because I'm like, yeah, why do [00:50:30] you need a DNI program Because you, you, you, you automatically are the most creative and innovative company in the world.

And then to my point [00:50:40] is that diversity, equity, inclusion, there is a purpose for that. There's the, the purpose is organizational and it, it is success [00:50:50] focused. If you can tie certain programs to show that it is, um, it contributes to the organization's success [00:51:00] that is really important. And I know it's sometimes very difficult to quantify, but, um, in my opinion, I don't, you know, I've never really been a fan of like, here's this [00:51:10] many, you know, types of people should be in this type of role.

I've never really been a fan of that type of data, which is like descriptive statistics. But if you are linking, [00:51:20] um, a diverse, you know, diverse teams which bring in different perspectives that allow for innovation and cre uh, creativity to [00:51:30] happen, that is an important business metric. And whether it's called de and i or diversity or an inclusion or inclusive leadership and all of [00:51:40] these keywords, I don't, I think if you move kind of away from that and talk more about.

In our business strategy, we need to expand our market. Okay? If you [00:51:50] need to expand your market, we need to be more creative. If we need to be more creative, we need to make new products or new services. If we need to do that, we need mo multiple perspectives. Do we have that? Looking at our [00:52:00] team, looking at our function, looking at how people, um, you know, how these teams work together.

Are we able to allow people to speak up in the room? Um, [00:52:10] do what are the, what are the repercussions if people, you know, speak about an idea that they don't like? What, um, do leaders speak first or do they speak last in a meeting? [00:52:20] That's important. So it's all of these pieces of the puzzle that contribute to organizational success.

And if you can tease that apart, I think you are a much [00:52:30] more valuable person to the organization to be able to identify and clarify what that looks like and how that is. And if it's not statistic, at least being able to share it. Real world [00:52:40] examples within the organization that, that pair to those successes.

I think moving away from the conversation around d and i and move and bringing in organizational [00:52:50] metrics and success, you are much more powerful to any type of leader, whether they want d and i or they don't. Right? Um, it's, it's really just a matter [00:53:00] of how do I make this organization successful, and then how do I make this function successful?

How do I make the team successful? And being able to tie all of those things together [00:53:10] and you will get very, you know, not as much pushback in my opinion.

Melissa Plett: I would just, I know we're close to time, so. [00:53:20] Interest of being a voice and not an echo. I'm just gonna say I agree with the sentiments for Jessica and Felicia here. Um, and just going back to the re-skilling and [00:53:30] retraining, I think if you're experiencing that, and I'm, I'm very sorry if you are, but that does impact business strategy and unfortunately it's kind of a just [00:53:40] horrible sandwich to have right now.

And so if you're going through that, just really thinking about how you can leverage some of the tips we shared today on managing this humanely, really [00:53:50] generous packages for people, having really thoughtful conversations and also seeing where else can these skills be used, if there are roles available across the organization where you can [00:54:00] redistribute that workforce versus riffing that workforce.

Um, those are just all things that you can still leverage.

David Rice: I think we have time for one [00:54:10] more. I'm gonna make it a kind of a quick one. Um, but, uh, if you had to give a tip for some, uh. A leader who's concerned about the employer [00:54:20] branding piece, uh, what's gonna happen to our reputation? What would it be?

Melissa Plett: Be honest. [00:54:30] Don't hide from the fact that if you're, uh, by the way, I just, full transparency. I led talent acquisition in multiple organizations, spent many t many hours [00:54:40] on campus, um, uh, and career fairs with folks. You should be transparent and honest about what's happening in the organization, have that conversation and leave it up to a [00:54:50] candidate to decide whether that's a right fit, fit for them, and if they're willing to take the risk and join the organization.

Um, transparency goes a long way, and as [00:55:00] an individual you have, you can't control, um, the broader brand or the brand hit an organization might take if you weren't involved in the decisions around how [00:55:10] to handle rifs. So try not to take that on either. Just be transparent.

Jessica Martinez: Yeah, I would add, you know, [00:55:20] play the long game. Uh, rifts do happen. They were gonna happen in moments in time, but you are hopefully gonna be an organization that is in existence for 20, 30, 40, [00:55:30] 50 plus years. Uh, and if you have really hard core established values and people, and, and honesty and respect [00:55:40] is one of them, this decision is not going to be an internal one.

It is one that both future, uh, and potential talent will look at. And the immediate, the, the [00:55:50] short to to near term midterm of your productivity of your internal employees, um, is gonna be impacted by this. So play the long game. Don't, don't. You [00:56:00] know, give up on your values and, and kind of be sort of like loosey goosey on what matters, um, when making these decisions.

Because the long-term impact of it for any short-term win [00:56:10] you think you're going to have, um, either from a financial or from a brand PR perspective, are going to be lost.

Felicia Shakiba: Yeah. I have a couple things. [00:56:20] Um, one of 'em is absolutely take care of the people that exit. I can't stress you that enough. Um, when people leave [00:56:30] without healthy packages to help bridge the gap to their next role, uh, that word gets out and people don't wanna work for that company.

I [00:56:40] remember Airbnb did a massive layoff during COV and all people could talk about were. They gave great packages, [00:56:50] you know, and they pretty much didn't just take care of those employees that worked there, but they also, um, felt like, gave those people who [00:57:00] stayed a good feeling about, you know, okay, my colleague's gonna be okay.

And they also pretty much invested in their employer brand [00:57:10] that, okay, if I end up working at Airbnb, I think if I end up leaving, I'll be okay. Right? So that's number one is take care of the people who leave and then take care of the people who stay. That's number [00:57:20] two. So your employee value proposition doesn't come from, um, investing in, you know, going to a, a job fair or putting [00:57:30] up, um, job, job, um, ads everywhere.

It's really about what people internally are saying. To people externally about the job in [00:57:40] interviews as well and so forth. And so if you take care of people internally, that word spreads, um, to their friends, their family, their neighbors, [00:57:50] et cetera. And that becomes your brand. So I would say make sure people leave appropriately and with kindness.

And secondly, take care of the [00:58:00] people who stay. They're also struggling even though they haven't left, and they want to make sure that they can trust you. And so invest in them. Invest in their time, and make them feel [00:58:10] like they're gonna stay.

David Rice: Well. Thank you everybody. This was good. I, I love this conversation.

I, we could go on all day, but unfortunately we are at time. [00:58:20] Uh. I do wanna thank you all again. Thank everybody for joining us today. Um, you, Michael, put, shared all the links to everybody where you can find 'em on LinkedIn, their [00:58:30] websites, their podcasts. Be sure to check that out. Uh, one more thing before we go, I wanted to mention that was we've started an advice column.

Uh, our colleague Alana Fois, she does [00:58:40] great HR advice. Michael's gonna put a link to a anonymous question form in the chat. If you feel like asking a question for the advice column, please do, uh, [00:58:50] feel free. Also, you know, obviously check out the podcast. We've got more upcoming events like this. We've launched some new newsletters in the last month, so be sure you're keeping up with everything that people managing [00:59:00] people's doing.

And until next time, keep it honest.

Felicia Shakiba: David, thank you so much for, for having me, and, [00:59:10] and it's been such, um, great company, Mel and Jessica. Um, loved all your responses and so glad to be able to do this with you. Thank you. [00:59:20] Excellent.

Melissa Plett: Same. Thanks everyone. Thank you David, Mel, Felicia.

Thanks everybody. Nice to meet you all.

David Rice: Have a good day, everyone.

Michael Mordak: Perfect. Alright folks. Yeah. Thank you. That's enough of a pause, I think. Well, I mean, it'll be easy to cut out. Cool. Um, let's just give the last of our attendee the moment to get out and we'll do a quick debrief here, but no, we're not. Sorry.

David Rice: He does it's way cooler than mine.

Melissa Plett: How are your pups, David?

David Rice: Doing good.

Uh, they're, they're crazy. It's been raining here like all week and so like, it's been hard. It's more challenging to go take them for walks. So there's been a lot of wrestling going on. Yeah. It's like, it's like a, uh, what a Royal rumble in the living room.

Melissa Plett: Wwe, yeah. For dogs.

David Rice: I love it. Been entertaining though.

Michael Mordak: That's gotta be a TikTok channel.

Jessica Martinez: David, what? Your dog breeds.

David Rice: So I have two pit bulls, a German Shepherd and a Chihuahua.

Guess who's, guess who runs the show?

Jessica Martinez: Oh yeah. No doubt. No question. Mm-hmm.

David Rice: All four pounds of them.

Jessica Martinez: Oh my gosh. So sweet.

David Rice: And he has no teeth. That's the best part. I don't know why they're even afraid of him. So, because all his teeth, he's 16 years old, all his teeth is falling out. His tongue hangs out of his mouth all day.

Jessica Martinez: Thoughts of proof, like energy matters?

David Rice: Oh yeah. No, I, he, he showed me like, if you just show up and you just mean it.

Jessica Martinez: Yeah. Others

David Rice: will believe it.

Jessica Martinez: Totally. A hundred percent. Like bring that chihuahua energy into all your meetings.

David Rice: That's it. He's my hero.

Jessica Martinez: Just Felicia?

David Rice: I think so. I think she had to hop. Maybe she had watch, but yeah.

Michael Mordak: Somewhere to go right after. Um, but, uh, yeah, really quickly, I just wanted to say thank you again. That was amazing. I had, I mean, I think you were both in the chat kind of seeing it, but people were, it was obviously really resonating with them. They were super vibrant in the chat, people commenting, asking questions.

Um, you know, it's one of those things where I wish we could just run these for like another hour to answer all the questions that come through. Because what's interesting is you always, as you get closer to the end, I feel like people really start. Opening up and asking more questions, like, like get into some meatier topics.

And so one thing that we have are, are like discussing and floating right now is, is kind of extending these and maybe doing like an optional 30 minutes for just like q and a for anybody who wants to stick around. But, um, something we can always consider for a, a future one. But, uh, sorry,

Jessica Martinez: besides that's, I love that idea, but another idea could be is like if you have

three extra questions that have come up, you could throw it to David and or the panelists and say, record a short video. And then that just gives you like, yeah, you can push out to promote linking back to the original. Yeah.

David Rice: Yeah. We had talked about maybe doing like, almost like a lot where we select a segment of the audience, bring them into a, a different sort of setting and make it so that they can actually interact with you directly.

Oh, love

Michael Mordak: that.

David Rice: And then say like, it's almost like a live podcast or like a live show where we're all on stage

Jessica Martinez: because like we have a, some people sit up and they're like, who did you vote for? Did you change your mind now?

David Rice: Well, no, we have a platform called Riverside too. And one of the cool things about it's you can bring someone onto like a virtual stage to have the discussion with you.

So I think that's an interesting idea and it like, I'm ready to just make that a podcast show of its own. Really cool. Yeah.

Jessica Martinez: Really neat.

Michael Mordak: Well,

Jessica Martinez: we're trying that

Michael Mordak: very, we're gonna, we're gonna try one in June and see how it goes. Um, yeah. Uh, that's great feedback though, Jessica. And, um, yeah, David, we can, we can think about that as well 'cause we've got all the questions, uh, obviously from the, the chat transcripts so we can pull those out and uh, maybe do something.

After the fact, whether it's like a video response or it's a written response, um, that kind of thing. We can play around with it. Um,

David Rice: you can always do like hr fun time, and I'll pull like night scenarios off of Reddit and be like, what would you do?

Melissa Plett: How did that idea like it? I'm the same, those Reddit stories.

David Rice: Oh yeah. I saw a great one earlier. It was like, um, this person, they had a, so a colleague found them on a dating app and then went and told everybody and showed them her profile. And now like all the people who are in the office are like kind of like older guys and they keep making jokes, but she doesn't wanna make an HR thing about it.

I'm like, well, but you're kind of like, it's gonna get to a point where like, you're not gonna have a choice if you don't do something.

Melissa Plett: Right, right. I was like,

David Rice: oh God. And I was like, but what if you're the HR person and you see this happening, but they haven't come to you? Oh,

Michael Mordak: that's interesting. You know

David Rice: what I mean?

It's like, well, what do you, you don't necessarily wanna intervene, but. Like this is not great for the culture. So

Jessica Martinez: I mean, that's what I would just be like, is there a middle school principal available that could come in?

Melissa Plett: Right.

Jessica Martinez: Because what on earth

Melissa Plett: or I'm about to call your mom,

Michael Mordak: like what is,

David Rice: or in a lot of their cases, how about we have a conversation with your wife?

Yeah. Yeah. I mean,

Melissa Plett: weird behavior. I don't know. Yeah, it's, I like that concept though, David, that,

David Rice: yeah, I think like it just as like a fun conversation. I think it's a good one.

Melissa Plett: So, yeah. Yeah.

Jessica Martinez: Real. Um. Real life. Real life. Nitty gritty scenarios.

Melissa Plett: Yeah. What we really deal with. The ridiculous,

David Rice: yeah, the ridiculous things that happened.

Like I

Melissa Plett: can't believe this is what I have to address today, but okay, here we are.

Jessica Martinez: Someone's sending you their medical photos in Slack. Oh, okay. They're fantastic. Thank

Melissa Plett: you.

David Rice: Their x-rays from the doctor, like it doesn't need to be in here, but,

Melissa Plett: okay.

David Rice: That's on a company server now. So

Michael Mordak: just, just to close it off, sorry. I think, oh, I'm so, I think it's, I think mine I David a message saying that I think his internet was copied, but I think it's mine. Am I, I think I'm, I

David Rice: think, oh, okay. Yeah, I wasn't sure. I was like, oh, man, I, the weather's bad. So when you said, when you messaged me and you said it was choppy, I was like, oh, this could be bad.

Because sometimes here when it starts to go, it like goes south fast. So I was like, oh, is your internet? Yeah, like, was, 'cause like there's so, you know, Atlanta's so full of trees and we hit like down power lines and down damaged different types of line, like cable and stuff all the time. Like, it happens regularly during the summer.

It's hectic. You'll have like a power outage that lasts like 14 hours, like,

Michael Mordak: oh my word. I've

David Rice: had that before. I'm like, don't open the

Michael Mordak: fridge, just leave it. Just let it be cold in there. Um, I moved a little bit closer to my router, so hopefully this is better. But, uh, yeah. Um, anyway, I just wanted to wrap up 'cause I don't want to keep you guys forever.

I know you have a lot to do and get back to. So, um, yeah, really just again, wanted to say thank you for, for everything. Um, the feedback has, has been amazing so far. Um, so far it's all five outta five folks mentioning that the, the panelists, um, we're all really insightful. Um, some of the takeaways that they mentioned here was transparent communication, um, making sure people are owning the decisions.

So some of those messages were really resonating with folks, which is good to see. Um, after this I'll send everyone just a quick, uh, email to wrap up some of the, the stats from today. And then what'll happen next is we'll get the video from this, um, just do a light edit on it to clean up some of the, like, housekeeping notes and, and add some little, um, uh, intro things like that to, to, um.

Put some branding on it and then, um, in the coming weeks we'll pull out a few clips from this and share those online as well and make sure to tag each of you in those as they go out.

Jessica Martinez: Awesome. Awesome.

Melissa Plett: Thank you so much, Jessica. So good to see you again, by the way. Yeah, same. I learned

Jessica Martinez: so much just from listening to you and Felicia as well.

I mean, I feel like that's one of the, the secret like, you know, positive externalities of these types of things is you're like, wow, that's fascinating. Like, what a great idea. So, so lovely to connect with you, Mel, and David and Michael. Really appreciate the opportunity and, and, um, hope to stay in touch.

David Rice: Yeah, absolutely. We'll be in touch about future stuff as well.

Jessica Martinez: Love it.

David Rice: Love it both of you. Thank you.

Michael Mordak: Okay, have a great rest

David Rice: of the day folks. Happy

Jessica Martinez: Thursday. Bye. Happy Thursday. Bye.

​[00:59:30]