How To Build Resilience In Your Company (with Madison Campbell from Leda Health)

Read The Transcript:

Timothy Reitsma 16 cease and desists, 16 members of Congress asked them to stop. Five subpoenas, two statewide bills introduced to ban the company all within one month. Can you imagine that? What would you do, quit, give up, or would you push forward? My guest today, Madison Campbell, co-founder, and CEO of Leda Health, a company that is seeking to not only revolutionize forensic collection and testing but also to connect sexual assault survivors with medical professionals and support of communities to aid them in their recovery process. 

Thanks for tuning in. I'm Tim Reitsma, the resident host of People Managing People. Welcome to the podcast. We're people managing people and we want to lead and manage better. We're owners, founders, entrepreneurs, we're middle managers, we're team leaders. We're managing people. And yes, we do human resources, but we're not HR, at least not in the traditional sense. We're on a mission to help people lead and manage their teams and organizations more effectively. So if you want to lead and manage better, if you want to become a better organizational leader and more effective people manager and join us. Keep listening to the podcast to find the tips, tricks, and tools you need to recruit, retain, manage, and lead your people and organization more effectively. And while listening to the show, please subscribe and join our mailing list on peoplemanagingpeople.com to stay up to date with all that's going on. 

Welcome Madison. It's such a pleasure to have you on the People Managing People podcast. 

Yeah, I just was really intrigued by your journey and your story and. Yeah, so. So thanks for taking the time to join us. 

Madison Campbell Well, thank you for having me. I am excited to be here. 

Timothy Reitsma Yeah, I know we're in the intro. I'm sure people are extremely intrigued and we're going to get into that straight away. And I'd just love you to tell our listeners a little bit about yourself, a little bit about your company, and how you got to where you are right now. 

Madison Campbell Yeah, trials and tribulations, I tell you. So I grew up very humble beginnings. I grew up outside of Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, in a small town called Frenchville, a single mother, only child, really loved musical theater, dance, acting, opera, singing. That was kind of my deal. I thought I wanted to be on stage or be an entertainer, be an actress. Something along those lines, you know, turns out maybe I got more media doing this than I would have had good acting. But yeah, that was kind of my life growing up. I was always kind of, you know, very, very interested in innovation. Right. I had always fought for what I believed in, even at a young age. You know, I remember one of the first things that I fought for at a young age was actually trying to change a rule in my eighth grade. 

Timothy Reitsma Oh wow. Okay. 

Madison Campbell Yeah. So when I was in eighth grade at the library, they had a rule of how many books that you could take out at the time. And I was a very avid reader. Right. I love to read. I love to take out as many books, bring them home. And there was a rule of how many books you could take out. And there was also a rule of underclassman. So people in eighth grade and below being able to take out upperclassmen books. So 9th to 12th grade. And I fought that rule and I had this big thing with my principal and had my mother coming up to that high school and having to kind of petition my case. So rule-breaking and standing up for what I believe in, even in small little things like that where I don't agree has been kind of in my blood. And I've been very, very glad and happy that I've had parents who supported that instead of saying, oh, you should have just done what the world said, they said, well, if you don't agree with something, you know, you better have a good reason. But I'll support that. Right. And that kind of brought me into, you know, going into entrepreneurship. So in college, I studied epidemiology specifically around Epstein Barr virus, was my passion. It thought I wanted to be a doctor. And then right when I was going to apply for kind of higher education. So Ph.D. programs, Trump was elected and a lot of the grants that I was going out for got cut within the first 90 days of the administration. So I had all these dreams of academia that kind of went downhill in a way. And I wanted to try to continue figuring out how am I going to innovate, how am I going to create these new crazy ideas and entrepreneurship felt like the way to do that. And so I really took something that personally afflicted me when I was in college, which was my sexual assault whenever I went abroad to University of Edinburgh. And I decided to really look into the problem around sexual assault reporting, looking at my own situation, asking myself why I did not report, why I did not get resources, and then trying to create a world, the world that I wish that I would have been able to live in. Of resources that are plentiful and have the ability to really empower survivors. And so that's kind of how I created Leda Health. Our main product is very controversial. It is the first at-home sexual assault evidence collection kit. You would think that it's not that controversial, right. You know, swabs in a box, but the notion of allowing victims of sexual assault survivors of sexual assault to collect their own evidence, have their own autonomy over their own body, is apparently a very controversial and political issue, which kind of led into all of the stuff that you introduced me about. All the cease and desist, all that kind of backlash. 

Timothy Reitsma Wow, that's incredible. I would think that you know, was reading a bit about your bio and the history of your company and it sounds like there's an opportunity for a lot of improvement with the collection and to support the victims of sexual assault. So what could have led to all this backlash? 

Madison Campbell So I sent out an email, a mass email to a lot of people. And one of those emails went out to Michigan State University and they were not that happy to receive my email, considering the fact that I don't know if you are familiar with this, but the Larry Nassar case happened at Michigan State University. And so they had been under fire for the way that they handled sexual assault or should I say, did not handle sexual assaults. Well, for a multitude of years, they sent it over to the attorney general, who without ever talking to us, sending us an email, even getting to hear our side of the story, issued us a cease and desist letter and then went into the press and then went to every other attorney general in the country. And then within a month, everything stacked on. We were I was doing nine interviews a day. We've been mentioning in the press over a thousand times. You know, at the end of the month, we were we had six hundred and nine hundred appearances per day from local news covering the story every single day, which was insane. I mean, we were getting death threats. We were getting reporters breaking into our office. It was a really crazy time. 

Timothy Reitsma That's incredible. And. And I can't even imagine that journey, I think, of entrepreneurship and, you know, you're trying to maybe come up with a social app and you think I'm just going to give up because it's not working and but you're still here and you're still pushing and to change it, as I said in the intro, to revolutionize this area. And when I was when we connected offline and I watched a couple of your talks, the word resilience came to mind. And what keeps you going? Like, it's just, you know, what does resilience mean to you? 

Madison Campbell Sometimes I don't know how I continue going. And maybe I'm just saying that because we're recording on a Friday and I'm tired from the week of having to be resilient. But it's tough. Like, it's not something that I don't think. I think it comes naturally to me as a trauma survivor, you know, being able to kind of take the trauma and still continue on living every single day. But it is extremely difficult. I mean, during that time, I never thought about giving up, actually, like thought about closing the company. But there were many, many times where I was like, wow, I wish this would just end right now. Like, I should not, you know, I just wish that it would end, like, all the press. Right. Just like give me a break and give me some time to prove that what I'm doing could actually change the world I wanted time. Right. I kept asking for time. Eventually, I got time now. We've had plenty of time, you know. And so I kind of miss the craziness of everything because my adrenaline was high. I felt like I was, you know, fighting this big war. And it was very exciting. And it was I mean, it was difficult to stay resilient. But in those moments where I thought about giving up, I just, I thought about the mission of what I was doing and how passionate about the product and about the idea. And that passion gave me the ability to really wake up every single day and get a text message from Liesel, who is my co-founder, which would say one state. It would all I would do is I would wake up in the morning and I would get a text message from Liesel and it would say Maryland, Hawaii, Alaska. And I did not, Liesel did not have to say anything else but one state. And I knew exactly who are like Maxine Waters, you know, like actually I think she did whenever we got the congressional letter. Liesel did not say Maxine Waters would text message to Congress. Oh, but, you know, I don't know. I did it. I did it somehow. 

Timothy Reitsma Yeah. And your company is growing and your company is still here. And so not only are you resilient, I think of all the people that work for you. So how old is the company now? And have you pivoted have you changed the vision at all or the mission? You tell us a little bit about where the company started, even in terms of people and where you are now. 

Madison Campbell When we started, we were a two-woman shop in a very small Brooklyn office and now in our Slack. And there are, of course, our part-time people right in our Slack, we have eighty-four people. 

Timothy Reitsma Eighty-four. Wow. 

Madison Campbell I Check the number right before this call because I wanted to know, you know, there's people that are kind of here in a part-time capacity, maybe a few hours a week, but yeah. Eighty-four. And we actually removed people who, who left, you know after the summer, during the summer we had a lot of tons of people. So yeah. Eighty, eighty-four people in our Slack that are actively working on the company. 

Timothy Reitsma And, and so, you know, the company is producing at-home kits as well as the processing and what would what else are you up to in Leda? 

Madison Campbell So this kind of goes back into the question of like, did you pivot? So, you know, for all intents and purposes, we're still doing the same thing. We rebranded and we're now in need to help, mostly because we wanted to have a more holistic solution. And that includes not only doing the at-home rape kits but also doing STD testing, support groups, teletherapy, telemedicine, and offering emergency contraceptives to the survivors. So really a holistic community that from the moment you're sexually assaulted all the way from the moment that you're getting justice, telling your parents, you know, telling the community that you're in what happened to you? We want to be there every step of the way. 

Timothy Reitsma That's incredible. I just want to applaud you for not giving up. I think so many entrepreneurs and people that I've known who have started businesses and, you know, things don't go their way or, you know, six months in the Slack that maybe will change. But sticking to your vision and the purpose of the organization to get you out of bed every day. And that in itself is a lesson in resilience, but also having a vision and a mission that you just bought into. 

Madison Campbell And so I think, you know, I think it's important not only was it a vision and mission, but it was what people wanted. And so I, you know, I think that if you go out and build a company and then you have to pivot because no one wants what you're selling, that's probably a good idea. Right? You did not get product, but from the beginning of our company, we were being told by survivors this is what they wanted. This would have changed their life. They would have collected evidence if they would have had that. And the only people that were opposing us were essentially legislators. Right. Like these five people at this high level. Who are they to determine what we as sexual assault survivors want? Right. And I'm sure that a lot of these legislators maybe have stories of their own, but that their story and what they want to do and their views could not determine the seventy-seven to 90 percent of people that don't report. You see what we're doing as an additive and as a service that they really want. 

Timothy Reitsma Yeah, so so maybe walk us through that a little bit of all these legislators want to shut you down if they want to silence you and from your own personal story to people who are also other survivors are saying, no, we need this So and your company still around so you can't just ignore the legislators. So what changed? 

Madison Campbell I think what changed was COVID, actually. So COVID created this cultural change of a lot of people realizing that the way that we have been doing things for a long time will not work. And so there's been this massive cultural change where legislators are finally opening up to the fact that we have to do at home testing, we have to do telemedicine. Emergency rooms are getting full like we can't operate in the same way that we were operating before. And so really what has changed and, you know, COVID has been horrible for so many people, specifically domestic violence and sexual assault survivors. But it has been good in one specific way that it's created a culture change of individuals that understand and know why we need this product to be out there.

Timothy Reitsma Wow. And so that, I can imagine, is just changing the tune of politicians hearing that this is a product that is critical in this time. Is that true? 

Madison Campbell To an extent, I mean, I'm still coming back from some of the folks that opposed this very early on, and they don't want to, you know, look, if I was a politician and I made such an adamant stance against something, I don't know how much I would want to go out and say, you know what, I was wrong. I was an idiot. Right. Like my bad, you know? So I think there's going to be some politicians that are definitely not going to want to go out there and say, hey, I fucked up, you know, no big deal. Just forget everything I said I was wrong. When have you ever heard a politician say that they were wrong? 

Timothy Reitsma Yeah, yeah. I'm just thinking in my mind here in British Columbia, we're going to an election. And, you know, in the States, there's an election. So we're not going to get political. But I'm thinking, you know, watching the different debates and campaigns and yeah, it's not common. It's not common for people, even in general, to admit they're wrong, even though humility is such a, you know, yeah. We could do a whole podcast on why we should be doing and doing that and owning up to our mistakes. But so I just kind of want to chat about your team. So you're you've grown the company to 84, blend of full-time part-time over the last couple of years. And with COVID, you've said you've seen an uptick in your business. It's which is it's great to see that that you're still going and going strong. And so how do you keep your team engaged, being remote, where you remote before or to fully disperse or what? 

Madison Campbell We were half dispersed and half not dispersed. So we definitely had people that were not working in the office every day. And we're very flexible workplace. So we've always had the ability to kind of live on Slack. So the transition wasn't as bad for us as it was in some of these big companies. 

But yeah, I mean, it is it's difficult to retain engagement. And we found early on when we kind of started growing the company. So back in March, we really we went from like, you know, so back last year we were two and then at the end of last year, we were around five. In the beginning of this year, you know what? 

We were about eight. And then we went to like sixty. It was like eight sixty, which is OK. And so we failed a lot at trying to get people engaged. But we also realized that we went through this time period and we would essentially call it like this two week period where you got to know us and we got to know you. And it was no, like, big worry if after the two week period you want to leave and you don't want to work here and same with us. So that's kind of what we did to really figure out, like culture-wise, is this person going to fit in and usually culture-wise, like the person who does really good at our company is a self-starter. So somebody who doesn't really need to be told what to do, but is coming up with ideas of what to do and that sometimes you don't naturally find until around two weeks like of getting to know that person in the job. So we made it super open-ended where we were like, look, like we acknowledge that we're this crazy startup. We're trying to move really fast. We're trying to do these big things. Let's bring you in, see if you like it and if you don't, no big deal. You know, it's not a big deal. You go your way, we'll go ours. And that's kind of how we did a lot of our placements early on. And that's kind of how we ended up finding like what worked for folks is the folks that actually stayed around who were very, very active in the community were the ones who ended up staying with us and continue to stay with us. 

Timothy Reitsma That's, I like that. I'm thinking about, you know, I've worked full-time and a people a culture position and, you know, different jurisdictions, different places. There's probationary periods. But I like that kind of no pressure. Let's get to know each other for two weeks and see if it's a fit. And that way it's you know, it's kind of a mutual decision. Then if you need to somebody needs to move on or they're going to, you know, do well and in an organization. And so I was reading an article on media and you talked about happy hours. And so let's walk us through that, because, you know, a lot of organizations are fully remote or trying to figure out what is the new norm. And communication has come up in numerous conversations among peers and friends with an organization. So talk us through this idea of your happy hours. 

Madison Campbell Happy hours literally when we get on the zoom. And we all get, like, wasted without, and then that's our way of doing it, like we're all good. 

And this is when some of the senior officers, not just myself and my co-founder, but our general counsel. Right. Like, you know, we'll all drink a little bit and we'll tell our stories. And it's a very private space where we do it department by department. So it's only really that department getting and we do also into department stuff. But we really focus on like getting to know the people that you're talking back and forth with on Zoom every day in a very, you know, very fun environment over alcohol, most likely, or whatever substance that that individual prefers. And that it's been like a way that we've been able to create friendships outside of the workplace. I mean, there are people in our workplace that met working for us. And they left. 

They were only here for the summer and now are very, very close friends, which is really awesome like that. We've been able to create that. 

I mean, two of my like kind of like senior leaders in the company are now best friends, like they're visiting each other. They are doing all that kind of stuff, which is absolutely crazy and insane. 

Timothy Reitsma Well, yeah, it's kind of built that remote connection and sounds like you found a way that makes it work for you and your team. And you do get a lot of participation. 

Madison Campbell We do. So we get a lot of participation. You know, we did when we first started now. Now that kind of school has gone back in session and a lot of folks are working either in school or not in school, not as much. But yeah, we do get a lot of participation. 

Timothy Reitsma That's fantastic. So it sounds like that's just been an incredible journey from, you know, even since what you said March from eight people to 60. And how do you manage that growth? I know I guess you've handled a whole lot more. And so, yeah, with legal battles. And but how do you handle that growth? How do you do with that growth? Because it could your culture could change overnight. 

Madison Campbell So this is something that I, I think is an interesting question because I figured out how to handle it. And I don't know if this would work with everybody, but this is what I do. One. So you have this two week period, right, where you're really trying to suss out the person, trying to figure out who they are, what type of person are they? Are they a follower than a leader? In that two week process? I really am able to see who is going to be a leader. And the thing that we do in the company is promote quickly, like promote two weeks in one month. It's like, yeah. So I know that sounds like a crazy thing to do in most companies, but that's kind of how politics works a lot of times. So politics generally like and when you're running a political campaign, you can come in as an intern and you can work super hard and then you're somehow chief of staff or something like that. It's really cutthroat environment, but it's based off, of how fast are these people moving. And that's kind of how we think about our company, very much like a political campaign. And I would be kind of the culture as well if I were to describe it. So we bring in people I immediately know, the team immediately knows. Are they going to be a leader? Are they going to be a follower if we identify them as a leader early on? And we know and I'm wondering if you kind of figure that out, too, in your position, like, you know, automatically if someone's going to be a leader, not because we see it and we try to positively reinforce the fact that they can be a leader in the company by giving them a promotion within the first month. 

Timothy Reitsma Yeah, I see it in the organization that I'm involved in. We're interviewing candidates, bringing people in. We could tell pretty quickly who's going to be coming out as a leader in a team. We also see, you know, in my position, I like people in the organization and anybody has access to reach out to me for coaching. And so there are people who are very, very much self-starters who say, hey, Tim, I need help in this area. Can you help me? Can you coach me? How should I deal with this situation? Because they're just eager to learn, eager to grow, either move up in the hierarchy or structure or. Yeah. Or do just better themselves. And so I don't fault, you know, either way, if there's people who are our great individual contributors and we need people who will just be heads down and get work done. And so, yeah, we can assess that pretty quickly. And other managers in the organization assess that talent pretty quickly as well. 

Madison Campbell Yeah, and I think that that's, you know, I love and there is a bunch of people on my team who wanted to be heads down and do what they came in to do and nothing more. And that's great. You need that in an organization. But you also need to you need to quickly identify who is going to be a leader. And we've been very good at identifying who is going to be a leader, even to even myself. Right. I, myself and my co-founder have identified leaders before other people in the team have simply because we know what we're looking for. Right. Like we know who's going to succeed here. We know who has the guts to be here through kind of all the craziness. And so I guess we also do have a bar for, like, looking for crazy people. Right? 

Like, how crazy are, you know, what level of crazy. And if so, there you go. Now, five people. And we've done that, by the way. We've brought in people. They've been here for two weeks and we're like, you know what? We really see the potential. We're going to give you five people underneath you. And I've done that. And yeah, we've that's how we build. We're like, I see it. And every single person who I have identified as a leader is dead. So, you know, what does that say? Right. 

Timothy Reitsma It's like just cut it all the bureaucracy and, you know, go with sometimes your gut instinct and say, hey, are you up for the challenge? Versus you have to pass these three or four assessments in order to get to that next level. It's like, what's the point? 

Madison Campbell If you with that, like what it was like, I could never work. Never is a big word, but I feel like a corporation and like, you know, would not be a great place for me because I would come in and be like, if I see somebody doing something wrong, I'd be like, I should have their job. And I'll tell you why they're doing so. You know that should be me. Right. And then you go through the process. You have to be here for years. I'm like, what? Like I can do a better job. It's like that is always been my way. It's like, you know, even since I was a young girl, it's like, oh, I know. I can I understand this. I can do a better job. So I'm going to go do that now. And I and that's how I live life and that's how I want companies to be. But, you know, let's talk in like five years and see if this culture actually pays off or it's toxic. And that's my biggest fear, is are we creating this crazy toxic culture where we give people so much responsibility upfront and then it becomes overwhelming and it definitely could do that, you know? 

Timothy Reitsma Yeah, it could. And that's where you get to the point of growth of, OK, how do we support our leaders and management leadership, some training resources and help. And but it's hard, but it sounds like you're really in tune with your team and, you know, the people in your team. And, you know, if they're struggling or if they're overwhelmed and getting them the resources that they need. And so I think that's also critical as you continue to grow. 

Madison Campbell Everyone when they're stressed out in the company, we have to get them like spend ninety dollars on Uber Eats for them like here you go. And that makes them happy. 

Or like I've bought four packages for some of the executive leaders or like a little vacation out to a cabin or a plane ticket out to California like that is I kind of ask them, I'm like, what do you want to do? You know, what would make you happy? And I go there and yeah, I don't know. We have no rhyme. We have no like system in place where it's like here it's like, you know, the companies five things that you can do, you can pick and where each order or go to GitHub. And we're like, hey, no, like what do you want to do? And, you know, here's my credit card. Too many people in honestly, this is so horrible with too many people in the executive leadership roles in the company have like all of my credit card information on there, we're on there over like everything, Netflix, HBO, it. I'm like, I should use the company like, you know, use my card and use my card, take it. Whatever I have to give to make you happy. I will. 

Timothy Reitsma Well, it's I've worked in organizations that, good job Tim, here's a gift card to a place that I'll never go to and it's what's the point? And I love that I was reading an article at some point. I don't know if it was this year, last year about something similar to that is asking your employees what gets them fired up, what gets them excited and then using that information to treat them go, oh, you want to go to a cabin in the woods. Here you go. Or you love go to the spa here. It's on me. And I think it just builds again, loyalty, but also resiliency in the team. And so. Yeah.

Madison Campbell Yeah. And I want to be like this, you know, this is like cool, you know, Gen Z millennial company. And I think that this whole notion of like, I don't know, like the gift card to Applebee's, and you're like, great, thank you so much, I love Applebee's, you know, it's not going to work anymore. And I think these employee incentive programs, a lot of them, just like I have a friend who works as a BDR, right. A business development rep. And they give like, oh, you get a discount to go to the gym. And I'm like, oh, great, why don't you pay for my gym membership? Because if you pay for my gym membership, which is, by the way, like most gym memberships, not that much like 15, 30 dollars a month, I'm going to wake up in the morning. I'm to go take a class and I'm going to be super productive when I work. This whole notion that we give discounts. Right. But not just outwardly pay, I think it's ridiculous. 

Timothy Reitsma Yeah. I think if you have fun, follow a podcast to just even talk about that and your thoughts on, you know, how to continue to not just incentivize a team, but keep them engaged and then reward. I think, you know, some people are motivated by just give me cash, I'll just put it in the bank or earn interest on it. I'm good. But some people don't like that. They want to be spoiled in different ways. And so, yeah, it's a fascinating conversation. And I think as we continue to see the world of work change to being remote or blend employees have opportunities to go other places now, more so than they did before the pandemic. And so meaning, yeah, you could be living in California, but working for a company in across the continent now and be fully remote. So it's something that that as leaders we need to continue to think about. So I just wanted to you know, I think, you know, we talked about your journey from all the political pushback. We've talked about going from a team of two to eight to sixty or to eighty-four plus. And where do you see the company going? Where do you see this Leda Health in six months from now? A year from now. 

Madison Campbell Two hundred people. 

Timothy Reitsma I love it. 

Madison Campbell Yeah. So I want us to be. I talked to an adviser right before this, and we like to call it like the shadow army, right? It's like this army of people who are fighting for a different criminal justice system and systematic change. And that's what I want to continue to build. So not only building out the community here, which I think I'm going to start devoting more time in my week to really bringing in the community portion of what we have the capabilities of. So I think it's really interesting not only to think about services which are great to kind of put out there but also a community piece of bringing everybody in to go and message back and forth and talk to each other and do webinars and really bring people into the community so they never have to feel isolated and alone. That's what I'm really excited about. And so that's what I'm going to start building very soon, spending a lot of time. So it's not only on the services portion, it's really on the community portion as well. 

Timothy Reitsma That's great. And, you know, you've been through a lot, you know, personally and professionally. And you're still going strong. I just I hear the passion in your voice. And so I know that that there's a lot coming and you see your future. And so for those listening, those entrepreneurs, founders, managers, anybody who's listening and maybe just feeling down, I feel like giving up on their company or, you know, throwing in the towel. What advice would you have for those folks listening? 

Madison Campbell You know, first off, it's like me, it's like, oh, my God, don't give up, it can be so much worse, right? Like it you got it. You know, I often say that if you aren't disrupting something big enough and people aren't mad at you. Right. Like if you're doing something wrong, you know, like people should be mad at you and people should not agree with you and that should take that adrenaline, take that fight, you know, and be able to use it. I used to say when I was younger, I was like the best energy I have for creating things is when I was broken up with, like, romantically speaking, because every time I was romantically speaking, I was like, I'm going to go out there, I'm going to look hot and I'm going to show them they're missing. Right. And that's what, you know to the people that feel like giving up, whether it's professionally in their job, romantically, whatever it is, you know, go out there and be like I'm to prove you wrong. Right? Like, I'm going to prove you wrong. I'm going to do what I'm passionate about and I'm going to kick ass at doing it. And that's I take that adrenaline. 

And trust me, there are times where I felt like I wanted to, you know, just sleep forever and never wake up and never have to deal with talking to another reporter again or talking to any employee about sexual assault over and over again. And here I am. 

And I don't know what the exact science is, but it's just, you know, figure out what makes you happy, figure out what you're passionate about. And once you figure that passion out, everything else is easy. And if there is a moment of time where you feel like, oh, I don't know what I want to do professionally, is this the right company for me to run, you know, really go back and identify what that passion is. And maybe it's because you aren't truly passionate about it because when you are truly passionate about something, even in the hardest days, even in the days where you've been knocked down and everything feels like it's failing, you will continue to stand up. And it's absolutely true. 

Timothy Reitsma Well, yeah, thanks for that. It's a lot of words of wisdom and experience packed in there. So I really appreciate you coming on the podcast today. And it's been such a pleasure to get to know you a little bit and hear your journey. And for those who are listening as Madison says, as you know, understand and dig into what makes you what gets you out of bed every day, what are you passionate about? And focus on that. So with that, again, just thank you for coming on and maybe tell our listeners as we wrap up how they can maybe get a hold of you or find you your Website or whatnot. 

Madison Campbell Yeah. Anyone, please reach out to me madisoncampbell.com. Follow me on Twitter. Follow me on LinkedIn. Message me if you ever need anything, you can check us out at Leda.co. We're currently under private data, but please message me if you ever need any resources. 

We have support groups. We have access to lawyers. We have. I'll be lend an ear if you're feeling like you don't have any passion left and I'll tell you exactly how to bring that passion back to the forefront of whatever you're doing. I'm here for you and I want to be a resource to those folks, whether it's through a traumatic situation like sexual assault or trying to figure out what the next move is in your professional life. I'm here. Please feel free to reach out. I'm only a click away. 

Timothy Reitsma Thanks again and thanks for the wonderful offer to our listeners and yeah, to those who are listening. If you have questions, comments, send them to my way. And with that, we just hope everyone has a great rest of your day. Take care. 

If you're looking to learn more, here's an article we picked out for you: Putting Employees In The Driver’s Seat Of Career Development