Authenticity or Bust: Why Performative Values Don’t Work Anymore

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Kelly Meerbott: The C-suite is an ivory tower with wifi. It's no wonder the VPs and directors don't trust you because you have made them human shock absorbers between you and your quarterly obsessions, and your workforce's lived reality. You know, you want trust? Get off your pedestal. Kill the executive presence and start practicing emotional transparency.

Stop offering alignment when you mean obedience, and for the love of integrity, stop using resilience as a euphemism for unpaid emotional labor. Middle leaders are exhausted by having to translate corporate gaslighting into digestible sound bites for their team. If you're not actively protecting those groups from the top down garbage, then you're the problem.

David Rice: Welcome to the People Managing People podcast. We're on a mission to build a better world of work and to help you create happy, healthy, and productive workplaces. I'm your host, David Rice.

My guest today is Kelly Meerbott. She's a leading thinker on psychological safety and a leadership coach, TEDx speaker, and the CEO of YOU: Loud and Clear. We're gonna be talking about the disconnect between leaders and their people these days and how you can stay connected and grounded with the people in your organization.

Kelly, welcome.

Kelly Meerbott: Thank you. I'm so excited to be here. Thank you for inviting me and having the opportunity to spend a little time with you and eventually your audience.

David Rice: Excellent.

So I wanna jump right into it. As we chatted before this, we were talking about the current state of things and how to stay calm in the chaos of the world right now, and this is a topic like I'm even writing about right now, is helping people focus, right?

Kelly Meerbott: Yeah.

David Rice: Let's just start here.

When leaders are coming to you and they're in the midst of some of this chaos and their people are flustered, where do you start the conversation around staying centered themselves?

Kelly Meerbott: Yeah. So first I, I don't start with centering of myself in a conversation, right? For me, I find that corporate speak for like spiritual bypassing.

When a leader walks into his MySpace and they're consumed by chaos, I don't hand them a breathing exercise. I hand them a mirror. Because we start with the truth that they've been avoiding. That's really how you get grounded and centered, and that's how you can be the buffer and still stay grounded as things externally are beaten on you.

Which is what's happening right now. Because here's the real problem — leaders are addicted to performance, right? They've been groomed by broken systems that really prize productivity over presence. So when the world burns literally, socially, politically, emotionally, they often go numb and throw out, oh, we've got this, into slack and keep marching like good soldiers towards burnout, which is, we don't want burned leaders, right?

So what I do is I get 'em off that autopilot, we excavate that suppressed grief often, the guilt of leading during a collapse, the fear of being seen as weak. Because if you wanna lead humans through the chaos and stay grounded, you better be willing to feel, because you can't out strategize a soul level disconnection. You have to reconnect and you have to do it radically, relentlessly and unapologetically.

David Rice: Love that. That's great. And I love just like how human that is.

Kelly Meerbott: Yeah. That's what it is, right? That's the essence of everything. Be human.

David Rice: Yeah. Now I think we're seeing that like across the spectrum, right? Like even when people look at your LinkedIn, what are they looking for? They just wanna see a human being.

Kelly Meerbott: Yeah. And remember when, I don't know when LinkedIn did it. I feel like I've been on the platform 17 years, but I feel like in the last three years they did that verification thing where you upload your government ID or whatever.

David Rice: Yeah.

Kelly Meerbott: To make sure that you're not a bot. I had one perspective client say to me, how do I know that your 119 recommendations for clients aren't bots. And I was like, they're real people. They just are. And because LinkedIn, thank God, has that verification process. So yeah, I agree with you a hundred percent, David.

David Rice: Oh, there's I think right now part of what's driving this sort of disconnect is there's like a level of mistrust with leaders. I didn't even say like just down to managers, right? But I think it's partially driven by the state of the world and what people are seeing leaders do, how they're making decisions, what they're basing those decisions on. It certainly feels like the C-Suite in particular views itself, almost like as a different class of people in some orgs. And I think a lot of folks are feeling like the decisions that group is making doesn't have their best interests at heart, be it long term or the short term.

When it comes to communicating with people within the org, what are some of the ways the C-suite in particular can establish some level of trust with their people? And I'm gonna hone in on the groups right below them here and ask in particular, how can they build it with their VPs, their directors, their senior managers? Because that group of people often gets caught in this strange in between, right? They're in a situation where you need them to communicate things down, but if they don't believe you, how are they gonna sell it?

Kelly Meerbott: Yeah. Let me be really blunt because we're in a hurry to change this. The C-suite is an ivory tower with wifi. It's no wonder the VPs and directors don't trust you because you have made them human shock absorbers between you and your quarterly obsessions and your workforces lived reality. You want trust? Get off your pedestal.

Kill the executive presence and start practicing emotional transparency. Stop offering alignment when you mean obedience. And for the love of integrity, stop using resilience as a euphemism for unpaid emotional labor. Middle leaders are exhausted by having to translate corporate gaslighting into digestible sound bites for their team.

If you're not actively protecting those groups from the top down garbage, then you're the problem.

David Rice: Whew, that hit. Wow. I think that a lot of people in a lot of orgs just will have heard that and gone, yeah. Wow.

Kelly Meerbott: Yeah. And one of the things I always say to my clients, David, is, especially when you're in the C-Suite, it is less about the tactical, it's more about managing personalities.

As a CEO, I'll pull this from Patrick Lencioni, you are the chief reminding officer, meaning you are reminding people the why we're going in the direction we're going in, the vision the organization has and how. And if you're hovering like the 30,000 foot view, if something's going off on the ground, you wanna dip down, help people course correct, and then rise back up and hold that thinking again.

Your questions are so great. I love those deep thinking questions. It's very astute, the observations that you have and they're spot on.

David Rice: I have to say, I'm lucky in that I get to be an observer of what's going on rather than a participant or a stakeholder in any way. And just literally looking through the window.

You get to observe a lot of this, and one of the things I also feel is like sometimes other leaders outside of the org, they go out into the world and they say things and they create these sort of headaches for you, especially if you're running like a smaller org, right? Because your people, they see these stories in the media and they think that's how CEOs think.

It's everyone says like return to office is the norm, because a handful of high profile companies have committed to that, but the evidence doesn't show that it's the new norm, right? Where there's more remote positions, more hybrid roles going on than ever before.

I think here the thing that can prevent you as a C-Suite leader from having to deal with that sort of perception problem is consistency. So what sort of advice do you give to leaders around consistency and the need for it? Because it is a significant challenge. It's not like these folks' calendars have a bunch of white space, right?

Kelly Meerbott: Yeah. So consistency isn't about sticking to a strategy. It's about being the same human behind closed doors as you are in the company livestream, right?

Your people are not looking for perfection. They're looking for congruence. So if you say mental health matters, but respond to burnout with a performance improvement plan, you're not inconsistent. You're dishonest. And let's pretending that time is the issue. If you've got 30 minutes to practice and rehearse for a town hall, you've got five minutes to call your VP and say, I see what you're holding.

How can I support you? That is the brand strategy. So real consistency David isn't a time problem. It's courage problem.

David Rice: Love that. Like management, leadership, these things, they're never easy, right? They never have, because people are always coming to you for answers to questions there often isn't a lot of clarity around. But right now it feels like people are in search of answers.

They don't feel like they can trust other people to have, like they don't trust the people to have those answers. We did an episode recently where I was talking with a guest and it came up that a majority of Gen Z would rather consult AI to help them solve a problem before they go to their managers.

So I'm curious do you think that creating that connection and helping people see you as part of a solution, a part of getting that answer they're looking for is even harder because of just the state of things?

Kelly Meerbott: If Gen Z trusts ChatGPT more than their boss, on a Gen Z problem, that's an in enlightment of leadership.

So let's get one thing straight. Leadership was never about having all the answers, right? It's about having the capacity to hold uncertainty and the humility to co-create the answers and the emotional range to make people feel safe even when the path is unclear. So today's workforce doesn't want charisma.

They want coherence. They want leaders who feel like humans and not LinkedIn memes with job titles. If they're turning to AI, it's because AI doesn't weaponize vulnerability, doesn't sidestep accountability and doesn't gaslight them in one-on-ones. So it's not harder to build connection. It's just harder to fake it.

David Rice: And maybe that's the, at the crux of it all right? Oh, too often we were faking it.

Kelly Meerbott: Right? What keeps running in my mind, David, and this was such an unfortunate thing, but think about the reaction of CEOs to when the United Healthcare CEO was murdered. The answer was to them, take my name and my picture off of the website.

Not what was the real problem? What was this action rooted in? How can we change that and shift and change what's inside us and inside our organization to get different results? It's not pulling your headshot and bio and off of your website. That's not what it is.

David Rice: Yeah, a private security team to follow you around.

Kelly Meerbott: Exactly. Exactly. Exactly.

David Rice: Yeah.

Kelly Meerbott: I wanna say that I am so sorry for the United Healthcare family, his family, his loved ones that are now suffering without him, not condoning that. But I think when these things happen, we are asking the wrong questions and we're focusing our energy in the wrong direction.

David Rice: Bit of a nasty habit we have this part of the world.

Kelly Meerbott: Yeah, oh my gosh. We could go on for episode after episode on that.

David Rice: Definitely.

I think too, there's an issue with leaders being out of touch with their people's experiences. And I'm not just talking about leaders like, Jeff Bezos, right?

He shoots himself into space, but here he is actively refusing to engage with collective bargaining, for example. But you've got execs getting bigger bonuses while the company is doing layoffs and then turn around and talk about the company being like a family or use the, all the kind of old lines that are getting beat up on LinkedIn now.

Because it all rings so hollow. Can you talk a bit about the need for, executive leadership or the C-Suite to embody values people can actually respect rather than trotting out the company values and calling it a day?

Kelly Meerbott: Yeah, so I would say to them, if you wanna talk values, great.

Stop printing them on recycled paper and start embodying in them and how you pay people, how you fire people, how you show up when nobody's watching. The family metaphor is dead because. You don't lay off your siblings while cashing a performance bonus. You don't gaslight your cousin into thinking.

Burnout is a growth opportunity and you don't invite your niece to a pizza party instead of giving her a raise. The performative values game is rotting your credibility from the inside out. So again, I'll reiterate, people are not looking for perfection. They're looking for alignment and embodied leadership means walking your values until your heels bleed, and if you can't, then just stop talking. Stop it.

David Rice: Yeah. Silence costs nothing.

Kelly Meerbott: And by the way, no response is a response.

David Rice: Yeah. It says something in and of itself.

When we spoke before this, you spoke about people mixing up accountability and shame and I found that really interesting 'cause I think the line is blurred for a lot of people and I don't think leaders are immune to that. We see regularly that leaders summit orgs that have accountability and culture, a culture of feedback listed in their values definitely react like people are, they're being shamed when accountability comes into it, right?

I've been in the past a part of organizations like that, and it absolutely undermines trust. I'm curious, would you say that this confusion is a result of not properly holding people accountable in the past and not having something to model a healthy relationship with accountability around?

Kelly Meerbott: Yeah, I think you're exact, again, spot on. I also think that people need to understand context and nuance because we have weaponized accountability into corporate shame porn, really. You know, most organizations use it like a guillotine, not a growth mechanism. Real accountability is intimate. It requires relational safety, emotional literacy, and mutual respect.

But we've trained leaders to avoid discomfort and demand compliance. So when somebody says, you hurt me, they hear you're a bad person and retreat into ego defense, which doesn't help anybody. It's not that people fear feedback, it's that they fear being discarded or not listen to or not seen. So when your culture confuses accountability with punishment, all you're building is a fear factory.

So the fix is to start modeling restorative leadership. Ask, how can I repair this? How can I fix this instead of how do I see YA, because that's where real transformation begins.

David Rice: Yeah, I love that restorative leadership. That's a good term. We're gonna have to examine more at some point.

Kelly Meerbott: Yeah, absolutely.

It's, you've created this, or your team has modeled this and you've broken the system. Go back and fix it. I think about when Roosevelt started doing the fireside chats, right? The reason he did that was 'cause he believed the American people could take anything on the chin as long as you were honest with them and told them how you were gonna fix it.

You can't just tell 'em how to fix it. You have to follow that, right? Going back to accountability and bottoming leadership, do what you say you're gonna do, but only 100% of the time. And if you can't honor that commitment, go back and renegotiate it.

David Rice: I like that. I didn't have SDR on the docket today, but I like it. That was great.

Kelly Meerbott: Thank you. Thank you. I really love this podcast because it is not surface level conversations. Like you talked about creating cultures where people can thrive. One of the things that really resonated with me about you as a leader is you don't just talk about it. You are about it.

David Rice: I saw that you put on LinkedIn recently, a post that was aimed specifically at women leaders. And it said, nice is not your superpower, it's your muzzle. I think for a lot of women reading that probably hits home pretty hard. Can you talk about the difference between kindness and niceness in leadership and how this isn't just some mushy gushy feel good talk, but an actual business driver?

Kelly Meerbott: Yeah. So you have to understand, again, context and nuance, right? Nice is what the patriarchy taught women to be so we wouldn't scare the voice. It's strategic compliance. It's smiling while being steamrolled. It's a velvet straight jacket is what it is. So kindness is ferocious. It's truth telling with empathy, it's setting boundaries so radical that they can liberate everybody in the room.

Kindness says, I won't let you stay small and I won't abandon myself to keep you comfortable. So in leadership, kindness is a profit driver because it creates psychological safety. Nice leaders maintain harmony at the cost of impact, where kind leaders build cultures where people stop walking on eggshells and start walking in purpose.

David Rice: Love it.

Kelly Meerbott: If you're still aiming to be liked, you're not leading, your performing. And we've got to drop this performative stuff, it just, we know, like you said, it rings hollow, but also people can smell BS from a mile away and they know what you're doing, so.

David Rice: Yeah, it's one thing to be liked as a manager, that's fine, but when you're like, when as you grow up and you become like a senior manager, it's not at all important. It's not effective. As you grow up the levels, it becomes about effectiveness is really all it is.

Kelly Meerbott: And integrity, like we said. The effectiveness can stem out of that embodiment, like embodying and enacting who you want to be as a leader. I heard, I used to say fake it to your make it.

I hate that cliche, but what I mean is believe it until you become it. So who's a leader you admire? What is their behavior in a celebration? What is it in a crisis? What is it when they're giving a motivational talk? And then model that behavior until it becomes muscle memory and you become that thing.

David Rice: Yeah, I couldn't agree more. I've done that in the past when, when I was in like management roles where I just really looked at some of the people that I looked up to, whether it was in my field or not. And just not to give it like a, I'm not trying to like, almost ize them, but what would they do in this moment?

It's that's how you learn and everybody has their inspiration, right? No matter what you're doing.

Kelly Meerbott: 100%, those are models for you. And I really believe leadership is trial and error. It's putting that on, and feeling what it feels like to walk around in that customized suit of leadership and okay, this pocket isn't what I like.

All right. So we'll sew that down and we'll tighten it. It's really making something that is bespoken tailored to you that works with you.

David Rice: Yeah, I couldn't agree more.

Before we go, 'cause that is all the questions I have for you today. But before we go, there's two things I like to do towards the end of every episode.

The first is I wanna give you a chance to tell people more about where they can connect with you and find out more about what you're doing.

Kelly Meerbott: Yeah. Find me dismantling outdated leadership paradigms on LinkedIn. I'm Kelly Meerbott, and that's M-E-E-R-B-O-T-T. And my first name is spelled K-E-L-L-Y. And you know my name has a PCC after all that means as I'm professional certified coach. Or you can find me at my website, which is kellymeerbott.com. And for those of you that are brave enough to burn the playbook and build something that actually works for humans, I'm your coach. Just be ready to get real and get real fast.

David Rice: Love it. The second thing is we have a little tradition here on the podcast where you get to ask me a question, so I wanna turn it over to you, ask me something. It can be about today's topic or it can be about anything that you want.

Kelly Meerbott: Yeah. So what I was curious about, David, was when was the last time you told the truth at work, even when it was inconvenient, uncomfortable, or risky? And what did it cost you or what did it set you free from?

David Rice: Oh God. Probably just the last like major project that I worked on where it was something that we hadn't really done before and I had to just be honest about what worked and what didn't.

And like some of it that I really wanted to work just failed. It just didn't happen. I don't even think it was totally things that we did wrong or it just think it, like maybe the brand wasn't ready for it. The market wasn't ready for us to do that. Whatever it was, we stepped out ahead of ourselves and we just had to be honest about that.

Okay that was cool. We proved that we could do it. We built a little bit of muscle, but at the end of the day, like that's not what we should be focusing on right this second.

And we will work towards getting ourselves to that place, but as badly as I wanna do it every couple or once a quarter to take on a project like this, we had to just admit that we weren't there yet. And truth sucks sometimes is the truth.

Kelly Meerbott: A lot of, like I always say, people don't wanna be told about themselves, which is why when I usually give feedback, I position it like, David, I have something uncomfortable for me to say that may be uncomfortable for you to hear is now the right time?

'Cause it's permission based, you're already setting them up for that. And then you give them the feedback. And if they get upset, then that's really on them because you. You've asked their permission, but most people don't like the truth, which is why we've got rewritten history and miscommunication, misidentification, what they call it fake news, all of those things.

Not that I believe all media outlets are fake, the amount of disinformation that's going on out there is mind blowing. I never thought I would live in a state of the world like this before, ever.

David Rice: You and me both. That's the show for today. I wanna thank you for giving us some of your time today, Kelly. We loved it.

Kelly Meerbott: My pleasure, David. Anytime. I'm happy to be of service and support to you and your listeners.

David Rice: Excellent. Be sure to check on the website 'cause Kelly's got an article coming out about Alpha Tonality, which is a very interesting read.

Listeners, if you haven't done so already, be sure to head on over to peoplemanagingpeople.com/subscribe. Get signed up for the newsletter. You'll get all this stuff straight into your inbox every week.

And until next time, they'll just trot out those values. You gotta live them.