How To Approach Hiring & Recruitment When You Don’t Have HR (with Joel Peterson from Arbutus Search Group)

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Tim Reitsma As a business owner or leader in an organization, you may be responsible for, well, a lot. You have to bring on new talent as you grow or as people leave, but you don't have a dedicated recruiter or HR team to help. So what do you do? Do you outsource? You just do it all yourself. And if you do it yourself, do you know how? Do you just post a job everywhere and pray for good candidates and hope for the best? There are costs associated with both costs in terms of money, but also time and the fear of making a miss hire. Joel Peterson is an entrepreneur, headhunter, and recruitment consultant who started his own firm called Arbutus Search Group back in 2017. He has a lot of experience, but guess what? He also faces the same challenges as he grows his business. 

Thanks for tuning in. I'm Tim Reitsma, the resident host of People Managing People. Welcome to the podcast where people managing people. And we want to lead and manage better. We're owners, founders, entrepreneurs, middle managers. We're team leaders. We're managing people. And yes, we do human resources, but we're not a check, at least not in the traditional sense. We're on a mission to help people lead and manage their teams and organizations more effectively. So if you want to lead and manage better, if you want to become a better organizational leader and more effective people manager, then join us. Keep listening to the podcast to find the tips, tricks, and tools you need to recruit, retain, manage, and lead your people in the organization more. And while listening to the show, please subscribe and join our mailing list on PeopleManagingPeople.com To stay up to date with all that's going on. 

Well, welcome, Joel. I really appreciate you taking the time today to come and be on the People Managing People podcast. So first off, I'd love to just know what's getting you excited these days. What's kind of top of mind? So let's say we're going through maybe I've got a company and I'm going through a growth stage and I need to hire, you know, ten more people. Do I just hire for position or company fit as in values and culture or combination of both? Do. Just pull the trigger on the first 10 applicants I get because I'm maybe afraid to lose them. You know, there's a lot packed into that one question, but I think it's top of mind for people. What do I do? 

Joel Peterson Yeah. Thanks for having me. I'm excited to be here with you. Yeah, it kind of sounds like you want to know where do I start? And I think, you know, probably the biggest thing that an organization should do before they go to market with me if they're going with one or two roles or several roles, really understands their own values and their own culture. That's so important for people these days to understand what it's gonna be like to work in that organization. I think Eric Tremuende said it best. You said you might have 10 organizations across the city looking to hire 10 different accountants and all of those job descriptions could look virtually the same. The skills, the day to day duties, the job. But the actual experience that that person will have at that desk in any one of those 10 companies could be vastly different. So that's why it's so important to get your values. You're what the elements of your culture are, what you stand for as an organization, and what that experience will be like for an employee joining the company. Get that established first and that's working with your leadership team. Working with your staff. Maybe it's an employee engagement survey. It could just be a simple meet and greet, you know, a few minutes. If you have an HR team or if you have a few leaders that can go out and kind of survey the staff, get a sense of what's it like working for our organization? What are we all standing for? What are we working for and what's that experience? And then once you establish that, you can kind of bubble that up into a job description and get it in there with all of the other stats and requirements and educational requirements and kind of the feeds and speeds I call it sometimes in the job description. So it paints a picture of what's the day to day work going to be like, but also what will the experience be? And that's really, I think, the best, the best starting point. 

Tim Reitsma That's I think what I'm hearing in the market. It's not just about meeting those qualifications. It's definitely more than that. So I'll just flip the tables a minute. So let's say somebody who's listening to the podcast is looking for a new job, looking maybe to start their career. And so they're finding these company Web sites and they're saying, hey, this is what our culture is, what it's like to work for us. How do you know it's not just smoke and mirrors of what they're saying? 

Joel Peterson Yeah, that's a great question. I think there is this shift that's happened where companies are getting smarter and they are marketing a certain brand to prospective employees and to candidates. It's really up to the candidate and it's up to you as the applicant to really kind of suss out or feel out if that's accurate. And so that really just goes to the point of having conversations with people in the company. You know, I do recommend that people reach out to someone they know in the organization or someone they could potentially connect with through a referral to find out what's it like working there. You know, what's your experience in the organization? I would always encourage candidates to ask that, you know, during their interview process. Why do you know? One of my favorite questions is always, why do you like working here? You know, what brought you to this organization? And I'll ask that of my clients as we're getting ready to hire and getting ready to interview candidates for a potential job opening, they have just got a sense of why they're there. You know what? What keeps them engaged at their desk every day and keeps them coming back? You know, we know there are lots of opportunities out there. Unemployment's at a 50 year low and certain skill areas. So people have other opportunities and there are other opportunities out there that are kind of knocking on their door. So what is it that keeps them at this organization engaged, fulfilled?

Tim Reitsma That's a great question. I've asked that question in the past. I've been asked that question as I've hired a number of people throughout my career and know having a good answer for that is key. And just candidates who are paying attention even to your body language, to the word you're choosing. They'll be able to read through the lines or the B.S. if you will, and see if you are reading the script of what's just written on the website or actually enjoying being there. So that's created by. So I think that's advice for candidates, but also for those who are hiring to be prepared for that. 

Joel Peterson Absolutely. I think most people know now that the interview process really is a two-way street. You're interviewing the company as much as the company is interviewing you. So you always want to have your best foot forward, whether you're the employer or the prospective or potential employee, but be aware of the warning signs. You know it just as you would have that employer interviewing somebody and you're asking questions and getting answers and responses. You're to your point, Tim, you're kind of watching their body language, getting a sense of mannerisms and you know what might be the truth and what might not be. And that goes both ways. 

Tim Reitsma I want to shift the conversation a little bit because I've got a question that I'm just really curious about. So, you know, you've been a business owner now for a couple of years of our built a search company. And so you wear multiple hats at this organization. You're the operations person. You hire talent. You pay the bills, your payroll, your you're. Yeah. You're doing a lot in your company. And so what do you do when you need to hire someone? Where do you go to hire another recruiting firm to help you recruit or do you just post that job absolutely everywhere? Or do you target, and how do you target? I think I'm speaking to your company. But it just even in general. 

Joel Peterson Yeah. Yeah. Great. Great question. And I can honestly say there hasn't been one single approach that I've taken. I do what I kind of recommend my clients do. You open up the doors to a lot of different options. 

And so, you know, I've done a bunch of things. I guess maybe that to talk about the whole spectrum of, you know, I I look around for referrals. You know, people in my network, that's a big factor. You probably know somebody that would know somebody. So get the word out there. You know, put it out on social media. I do advertise. Absolutely. Get the word out there to let people know that not only am I hiring at this very time, but we're an employer, in BC, and we're always looking for good talent. So, you know, it's kind of a branding effort as well. At the same time. But, yeah, I think getting out there, advertising the job, asking for referrals, connecting with my network, and even asking my staff who they might know, who they might be able to connect me with, to kind of add that next to that next hire. And I think, you know, if you're you're doing enough of that good work in-house, you're in place. We'll always have referrals for you. They'll always want to recommend their friends. So, yeah, yeah. 

Tim Reitsma It's a great point where instead of just, you know, blasting out of job description all over the Internet and hoping you're gonna find a good candidate, look inside your house first posted out there internally. I know some companies incentivized for that. You know, hey, find us a good candidate. We're gonna give you a little bonus or a day off or whatever it whatever you can afford. And, you know, when there's something tied to it, people don't want to put their reputation on the line by recommending somebody that's just too, you know, just for the sake of it. So it's a great piece of advice. Look in. Look in your house first ask. And and and go from there. Another piece of advice is that love is just going to your network, you know, linked in whether you love it or not. It's here to stay. And so put it out there. I see often people saying, hey, our company is growing. We're looking for X, Y, or Z talent. And you read through the comments. There are people being tagged in those comments, you know, all day, every day. So it's a good place to go. 

Joel Peterson Yeah, that's a great point. And I think, you know, this network, LinkedIn specifically is you know, it's growing really quickly. There are more and more professionals on it every day. And I can't remember the stat exactly. But it's a staggering number of people joining LinkedIn every day. And when you think about the connections you can make both on the platform, but offline, you know, in real-time with people, there are learning opportunities, there are networking opportunities, there are opportunities to hire people. And absolutely, it's a good place to get your brands out there on the Internet for people to see. 

Tim Reitsma Mm-hmm. And so your business, you're a recruiting company. So let's say again, I'm a small, medium-sized business. I don't have a cha- support to then say, OK, hey, HR I need to hire this talent. What do I do? You know, we all have these two words in our minds were too busy. So when would I engage someone like yourself? 

Joel Peterson Yeah. I mean, you can engage in a recruitment firm or, you know, someone like ourselves at any time. You know, I don't think there's I'll think there's really any kind of restrictions on that. You know, an organization like mine. And one of the reasons we started the Arbutus Research Group was really to, I guess, provide a different level of recruitment service, almost a kind of a corporate in-house recruitment service without actually having that headcount on your staff. A lot of smaller organizations that we work with and you know, we work with people who are, you know, kind of twelve employees right up to, you know, two hundred and fifty I would say is probably the sweet spot for us. And we've helped companies scale from twelve to thirty-five or in one case it was thirty-five to about eighty-seven. 

And over that, that kind of timeframe that we work with them, you know, their needs changed. But what we were always able to do is help them very quickly define what the right kind of job posting would be. So what the right kind of advertisement would be the right title for the roll to go to market so that people could actually recognize and understand, you know, what that position was going to be about and it and it would potentially resonate with them. And then getting into the market and really finding out, you know, who the people are, what the skill sets are for that role that is going to be most viable and most successful that in that position. And, you know, I would say in terms of engaging us, you know, you could come to us without a job description. We can help you write it. You could come to us after having done an exhaustive search and struggled to find people that would be the right fit for any number of reasons. It could be, you know, the salary that you're paying. You feel maybe off people declined offers and said it was because of salary or you just came against came up against other organizations that, you know, one went out and secured the talent before you couldn't see you. You know you didn't even get a chance to make offers to candidates. But, yeah, there's kind of you know, we kind of see all ends of the spectrum and different challenges for organizations, but we can help navigate kind of through all of that, you know, through the challenges in the market, through the struggles with declined offers and get you back to a place where you're feeling confident with making an offer to a candidate and most likely will have an accepted offer at the end of that process. And a lot of it is just, again, a consistent process conveying the right value to prospective candidates and being sure that we've kind of moved swiftly through the process, not speeding or rushing, but just moving quickly and with purpose and, you know, throughout the process to capture the capture that right candidate. 

Tim Reitsma One thing I had learned about you and your company, it's more than just finding somebody to fill a seat. That's there are recruiting companies. I know that does that. Nothing necessarily wrong with that. But I know from what I know about you is you are someone who's about purpose, about values, and approach it with extreme humility. And so I think there's an interesting sweet spot for your organization in that where companies are growing. And it's. Maybe you need to bring on a recruiting company, and I think it's also important to find a recruiting company that's aligned with your organization with the type of people that you want to bring in. Because, you know, your company is going to attract maybe attract a different type of candidate to fill in somebody in a seat. So I know we're kind of a little plug for our but is search, but I think it's a pretty cool approach. 

Joel Peterson Well, thanks. And I'm glad that that resonated. And, you know, it was obvious to you and when we started talking about recruiting you, I've been recruiting for, I guess, kind of 13, almost 14 years in the B.C. market. And I've recruited in Australia and Japan and the US. And I think what it really always comes back to in terms of filling roles and making sure that people aren't just going to drop into the position and be gone in three months or six months. It really does consistently come back to ensuring that the people you're talking to, the candidates, that you're kind of pitching your role, your opportunity, that they align their values, that their interests, their passions, you know, align and almost resonate with your values and your mission, your vision, your culture. And I think that can only happen through, you know, working with a recruiter or, you know, you personally recruiting for your organization in a way that has you engage the kind of the candidate or the applicant in a real conversation and in real multiple real conversations. You know, I find I've had some really interesting interviews with one in particular in Australia with a V.P. of sales who we would sit down with candidates and he would raise his chair behind his really big wide mahogany desk. And then he would lower the candidate's chair and power kind of shift, you know, in this kind of put them in a position where he would just make them as uncomfortable as he possibly could. We got into a couple of interviews and I was just shocked at how these interviews went. And it was. They were terrible interviews, just terrible. 

And as you can imagine, the candidates left. I don't think the candidates had any interest in working for him. Rightly so. But when we talked afterward, he said that you know, I just want to see how they deal with a really tough customer because this is what our customers will do to our sales reps. And I thought, oh, this is terrible. This isn't how we get the best out of people. And it's not how we would you know, we would want to treat them on the job to get the best out of them. So we really had some great conversations about putting people at ease and really getting a sense of who they are just very naturally in a calm environment. And you'll get them talking about what they're passionate about and what they like to do. And I think behavioral style interviews are really important. You want to ask the questions that aren't so philosophical, but more so. Tell me about a time you did X. How did that go? How did it work out for you? What was your solution that you proposed and what was the end result as opposed to, you know, tell me what you would do if you had a really tough customer so you're more leaving it to their imagination with the situational style. 

So, yeah, I think, you know, coming back to you know, how do you really ensure that people are gonna be a fit for your organization? It's giving them a realistic preview of the job opportunity and of the culture, letting them come in and, you know, see that culture meet people in the office doesn't hurt to tour them around, show them around the space. They can get a sense of the vibe, you know, kind of in that office. And I think, you know all of that coming together, you know, with a few interviews and meeting a few different people, again, you know, they're interviewing you as much as you're interviewing them. You should be able to get a good sense of whether or not whether or not they're gonna be fit. And I'll say, you know, I've worked in organizations where we did make bad hires and we did have people come on to the team that just wasn't fit or they may be the role wasn't what they really, truly wanted to do. And that's uncomfortable. That's hard. That's hard for everybody, you know. So, you know, recognizing that is is an important, important piece. And that's why we're not by box checkers. You know, that's why we're not just out there looking for somebody that has done those specific skill areas and only those skill areas. We look for a lot more than that. And it's about culture and fitness. 

Tim Reitsma It's great advice even for someone who is looking to work with the recruiting company or is maybe hiring for the first or second time. You started a little business. You need to bring on talent. You've never done this before. And it's more than just checking boxes and. And maybe, you know, stay away from raising chairs and hand fear and intimidation may not get you the right candidates, get you the right to. 

Joel Peterson Don't raise chairs. 

Tim Reitsma Don't raise shares yet. Sit on the floor. Now, just joking. Don't play. 

Joel Peterson You know you can. You can play around a little bit with the good cop bad cop thing. But, you know, we just don't think you get the best, most accurate depiction of an individual when you try and scare them. You know, this kind of fear tactic does not provide you know, it certainly doesn't provide a great, you know, performance from an individual in a work environment or, you know, in an actual work setting. So, you know, why would it work in an interview? I don't see it. I don't see it. So, yeah, good advice. 

Tim Reitsma I've got a question that popped into my mind. And so hopefully not throw a curveball at you. But I've had this question for a while and it's about reference checks. So, yeah, hiring someone you ask for references because, you know, that seems to be what you do. And that's been standard practice for how many dozens of years. And, you know, it's I've always thought, well, some is asking me for references. I'm always going to pick people that I like. You know, people that would speak highly of me. You know, I have one interesting story of who's looking to hire someone in a technical role. They made it past the phone interview with our HR team. Then they head first person, the first interview with the HR team. Then it came to me and sounded great. Then we did a reference check. And three out of three references said, do not hire this person. And I went, wow, that's very honest. And why would they choose these three references? And, you know, I will go into the details, but it was kind of shocking. And so, you know, what's your take on references? 

Joel Peterson Well, what I'm really curious to know if you hired the person or not on the spot. 

Tim Reitsma We didn't. I had actually just set up a flag that. Yeah. You know, we couldn't get a clear response from the candidate on. We did go back to the candidate to give them a second chance. And then it turned into they said I said and yes. And we ended up finding another suitable candidate. We had another suitable candidate. It wasn't a big issue for us. But yeah, it threw up a big cautionary flag. 

Joel Peterson Yeah. Yeah. And it would you know it and I think it should. With that said, I think, you know, this is kind of it's an interesting topic because, you know, references are to your point there. They're biased. You know, they're hand-selected by an individual that wants to get into your organization. So, you know, they can be skewed. I think generally, you know, generally speaking, you know, people will share insights, you know, that is going to help the individual. They're giving a reference for. But, you know, that said, I think if we look at references from the kind of, you know, more of a scientific approach, if you will, you know, somewhat. So first and foremost, references should only really makeup, you know, kind of 10 to 12 percent of your overall decision. So you don't necessarily want to wait for the 100 percent that if the reference is amazing, we're going to hire them. If if it's terrible, you know we're not. Or if it's not amazing, we're not going to hire them. 

So you want to consider it as a part of the weighting of the whole. Decision criteria. What you want to do is and what I always do for my clients is first and foremost, I dictate. And my client dictates who the references will be. So when you ask a candidate for references in some cases and in a lot of cases, I'll get well, I've got an ex-colleague that we were peers, you know, I'll give you that one. My old manager, I don't have their contact information. My last company. So I'll give you the previous company, my hiring manager. There, you know. And then I've got a college professor. And right away, I say sorry, but that's not how this is going to work. What we do need is the two previous reporting managers that you reported to. And if they're you know, if they're not somebody you've kept in touch with. You don't have a cell phone or an e-mail address. I can find them on LinkedIn. That's no problem. But I do want to get permission first. You know, I want it to be really clear to this candidate that we're not going to take a cousin, a friend, and an old professor from 15 years ago. So, you know, that's I think it's really important to get the most recent and to give you a sense of why it's important to get the most recent reporting managers or leaders, is that we want to know how you performed in a recent role, not how you performed when you were at college. You know, very different context. Many years ago, it's not that relevant. 

So what I always try and tell people is we aren't witch-hunting. We're not looking to try and dig up dirt on you. What we're trying to figure out is how do you perform, you know, in a given scenario and how can we best leverage, you know, your optimal skill, skill set, or skill area. So that's really important and kind of trying to help them understand that, you know, with this data, we can help them thrive in their new going into their new role. So I don't know if that answers a question, but I think, you know, first and foremost, being strategic about which references you're given and you get and then when you're on the phone with that reference, really understanding the context of the questions and ultimately their answers. So, you know, if they're saying, well, they didn't, do you know very well and you hostile client situations. OK, well, put that in the context of the role we're hiring the person for. Are they going to have the potential for being customer-facing? No, they're not. OK, that's fair. What I would do on that reference, though, is dig into. So tell me more about, you know, how they got broken down or where they kind of fell short when it came to dealing with hostile customers. Well, what were the issues there? You know, and you could say, well, they were in a call center and they were just getting berated by clients who, you know, were we were doing a price increase of 50 percent for customers. OK. Well, we're nowhere close to having a scenario that this individual works in that scenario. But good to know that they don't do well when irate customers are coming. Coming at them. So, you know, probably an area we can coach them on. But if they're going to be sitting in accounting, dealing with internal customers, then it's probably not a big, big concern. But hopefully, that helps. You know, they'll definitely understand the context for reference and understanding how to apply it to the wrong person. 

Tim Reitsma I think it does. I think it's it's just important to, you know, we can say whatever we want when we're in an interview to talk ourselves up. But it's you know, it's put into context. I think there's some importance to that. So, you know, another question that I've got is. OK. So you've got a policing out there. You're getting, I don't know, 20, 30, 40, 50 candidates. Your resume is. So you've got nobody else but yourself to screen through these resumes. What's a tool that you could recommend or a way to stay organized? You just create this massive Excel file. Is there a paid piece of software that you've used in the past? Do you just print everything off and use a highlighter? What's a way to stay organized? 

Joel Peterson Yeah, I don't. I think after I answer this, I won't be getting many calls from the local tech companies in recruiting because I think, for the most part, they're all broken. And let me give you some context for that. In my 13 years of recruitment, I've used really robust and somewhat expensive tools to screen, you know, any screen rate filter applications, resumés. 

And what I found across all of these tools and platforms, the AI, if you will, or the algorithms that are there to essentially rate an application based on, you know, keyword. A resumé or a cover letter just doesn't work consistently. Now, do they work? I think somewhat they do. They probably select out more of the bad than the good. But the odd good one that you do really need to to to see when you're in a competitive market like this could also get filtered out. And if you trust the system 100 percent, you might lose some really great applicants. So what I would say is in terms of if you're getting a couple of hundred applications, you probably have to read those resumes. There's no real easy way around that. So that's the bad news. The good news is there are lots of tools out there that can help you streamline a very basic level. Some of the kind of receipt of the management of those applications. So, you know, I think if nothing else, at a very basic level, if you don't have a kind of a corporate spreadsheet or a repository for a shared drive and a repository with that with a spreadsheet in it so that you can keep track of all the resume cover letters and associated documentation for each applicant. And then also the spreadsheet is key to kind of track notes. Feedback, next steps, kind of dates within the process. All of those important details were somewhere the application came from, you probably want to know where the applications successful hires are coming from so that you can do more advertising in that area, put more effort and more time into that area for sourcing and gathering applications. But I think that's probably the first thing you should have. Probably second to that would be a LinkedIn account. So kind of a corporate LinkedIn account and corporate page. Get your ads up there. Get your job advertisements up there. Get your posts and kind of social content up there so that your staff, again, you know, when they're thinking about referrals. They can post on their own LinkedIn timeline and make sure that the job ads are feeding out to their networks so that people in their network can see it. And yeah, I'd say if you wanted to go a little bit more robust, there's a lot of organizations out there that are just receiving applications through an email system. So they're just getting applicants to apply by emailing the resume and cover letter. I think you could probably get into an applicant tracking system that would be that central repository. You could leave all your notes in the system, you know, kind of set all that up for kind of as little as about $50 a month per user, which is pretty, pretty affordable when you think about having a safe, safe place for all of those job ads to go or sorry, job applicants to go. 

Tim Reitsma So I think a lot of hearing is get organized, whether it's, you know, an Excel file or some sort of tracking system. And, you know, as your organization grows and starts looking at maybe different tracking software or different, different ways, applicants can get put in their resumes. But, you know, I'm hearing a lot about the A.I. bots that are scanning resumes or scanning LinkedIn and for keywords and whatnot. And so, yeah, I think it's not going away. So even as an applicant, it's doing some research in the industry or the job posting that you're looking at to ensure that you are being found by these recruiters or by these pieces of software. So, you know, it's I appreciate that that advice. And so, you know, I know is as we wrap up, I want to get into. I'd love to hear one quick story from you. So over the last 13 years, you've hired hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of people. I know you led a team of recruiters who was hiring about 250 people per year for a span of four years. So that's a lot of people. Over a thousand people were for you. Harrison, you're leading the team. So I would love to know a quick story on a Miss Hire, like somebody who maybe just was like, you know, didn't work out for whatever reason. And what did you learn from that and Yeah, let's see what you can share with us. 

Joel Peterson Yeah. You know, I think there's, you know, 13 years of recruiting. There's gonna be a few of those hires that that didn't, you know, just didn't fit. And I think I like the way you kind of phrase it to ten, you know, Miss Hire versus the bad hire. You know, I think the difference really is, you know, the fact that Miss Hire. It just wasn't a fit for your organization and it might not be the right skill set skillset for the role that you're hiring for. 

And I think that's what I've seen. And I've kind of felt that pain if you will, or that that challenge when you make that hire, that something's not aligned with your organization. And you know, it slows everyone else around you down. It has you kind of working double-time to figure out solutions to kind of whether it's motivating the person or kind of reshaping the work that they're they're focused on. So they're more productive. You know, it disrupts a lot. And I think, you know, the cost of making a hire, whether you use an agency or you do it yourself, it is high because you're, generally speaking, your you know, you're taking up your valuable time. And especially if you're the owner of the organization, you know, time is money. So if you're spent trying to correct about the hire, that that can be tough. And I think for us, you know, when we're out there kind of searching for people again, I think we're really trying to connect with folks that, you know, again, resonate with our culture. And, you know, we're excited about the work that we're doing specifically. And I can think of a time back in 2015 when I was the manager of a recruitment team and we hired someone in the H.R. team that there just wasn't a fit. You know, I guess, you know, some of the things that went wrong for us is we know we saw some really impressive companies on the resume and that just kind of really got everybody into this excited state of wow. They worked for some really impressive companies. And we overlooked a few things in the process where, you know, as they were talking about the work that they were doing, we weren't really paid as much attention, paying as much attention to the specific executables or the deliverables and the achievements that they were making, but more so looking at what the whole team accomplished. And we just didn't drill into their aspect of, you know, what they were doing on that team and what they achieved on that team. And so once we got them on board, we realized they weren't in a position and didn't have the strengths or the skill set to deliver on those things. On their own, they really needed to rely on that bigger team that they had at that previous company that we were so enamored with and we were lean team, we just didn't have the people power, if you will, to support them. And delivering on those projects, they had to be a stand-alone person and they really struggled with it. So, yeah. 

Tim Reitsma I appreciate you sharing that. I think, you know, it's you can see big names on resumes. And it's just so important to read up the beginning, just to start digging into it. So, you know, I appreciate you coming on today, Joel, and just sharing that story and sharing some insights and how you stay organized and how important it is to spend time on this, spend time on recruiting and finding the right talent and how to find the right talent. So I think there's a lot of value in this. And so we'll make sure we put your company name or but a search in the show notes as well as a link to your LinkedIn profile. So with that, Joel, I just thank you so much for coming on today and I really hope to talk to you soon. 

Joel Peterson Well, thank you, Tim. Thanks for having me. And you know, I can talk about this stuff all day long. And yeah, I really just appreciate your time and it's great to connect with you and hopefully, your listeners get some value out of this. And yeah, just happy recruiting out there. That's a competitive market, but it's a lot of fun right now. 

Tim Reitsma All right. Take care. 

Joel Peterson Thank you.