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Reengineering The Future Of HR (with Enrique Rubio from Hacking HR)

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Timothy Reitsma

My guest today, Enrique Rubio, didn’t start off in a career of human resources. His first focus was on engineering. Now he spends his days as a founder of a global movement called Hacking HR with global chapters around the world and a massive online community. I am really excited for everyone to hear the story behind Hacking HR and how this community supports HR in every sense, in every city around the world. 

Timothy Reitsma

Thanks for tuning in. I’m Timothy Reitsma, the resident host of People Managing People. Welcome to the podcast where people manage your people. And we want to lead and manage better. We’re owners, founders, entrepreneurs. We’re middle managers. We’re team leaders. We’re managing people.

And yes, we do human resources, but we’re not HR, at least not in the traditional sense. We’re on a mission to help people lead and manage their teams and organizations more effectively. So if you want to lead and manage better. If you want to become a better organizational leader and a more effective people manager, then join us.

Keep listening to the podcast to find the tips, tricks, and tools you need to recruit, retain, manage, and lead your people and organization more effectively. And while listening to the show, please subscribe and join our mailing list on to stay up to date with all that’s going on. Thanks for joining Enrique. 

Enrique Rubio

Well, thanks so much for inviting me. And to have this conversation about HR and Hacking HR, and some of the work that we’ve been doing around the world. 

Timothy Reitsma

Yeah. Before we get into it, you know, I’ve done my research on Hacking HR and into your journey as well. But what we started off with, with telling us about Hacking HR or what is Hacking HR? 

Enrique Rubio

Absolutely. What Hacking HR is a global learning community that brings HR leaders and practitioners together to learn, discourse, collaborate, share about all things that are at the intersection of work technology organizations, people in innovation, and of course, how all that impacts the world, the work, the world and the work of HR.

And even though we’re called Hacking HR, one thing that’s that we are as well. Is that not only do we bring people to work in HR, but also people who somehow have an impact in the work of HR But they are not necessarily in the function, you know, technologists, consultants, van business leaders, and whatnot. So we are a very open community, mainly HR people, but a very open community and interested in bringing people together to learn about all these things. 

Timothy Reitsma

Yeah, I think that’s one. One question that I had was my background isn’t really in HR in the sense of HR I’ve led people and had an opportunity to get to lead and hire and mentor people throughout my career. So would I fit this community? Is it specifically for human resource professionals or is it open for anyone? 

Enrique Rubio

It’s open to anyone. You know, one, when when we create a new chapter in and you’ll see the very first thing that I mention about the principles of the chapter is that the chapters are open communities. And what that means is that anybody can participate in a chapter. They are all welcome to participate.

And that note, it doesn’t matter if you’re in HR actually totally the opposite is even better if they’re not in HR, because when that happens, then we are doing something that is the core of what we’re trying to do here, which is supporting ideas. So if you’re coming from technology, from sales, from marketing, from consulting, from a strategy, from innovation, that’s a matter where you come from.

I am sure that whatever you’re bringing to the table of the conversations that we’re having will be highly valued as part of what HR needs to understand to continue doing better work. So that’s a long effort to say that you don’t have to be in HR. It can be anybody joining this community. 

Timothy Reitsma

Well, I like that. And I like what you said about cross-pollinating ideas. And so having people from your background in an engineering and or having people in sales or manufacturing or it doesn’t necessarily matter what part of the organization you’re in. You can join this community and share ideas and build on those ideas.

So, you know, if there are chapters around the globe and there’s a massive online community of over eighty thousand followers on LinkedIn alone. And so, you know what is. If somebody joined one of the chapters or went to this online community and or online events, what to take away from an event? 

Enrique Rubio

What I would say a couple of things. The first one is getting together with other humans that are interesting, learning a sharing, and collaborating about the same kind of topics. Right. So I think one of the main takeaways is people connecting with other people where, you know, whenever somebody asked me about my role in this community. Well, of course,

I’m a founder. But, you know, I always say I am a builder. You know, what I build is bridges. And what I do with those bridges is when I build them, I am hoping to provide an opportunity for people to cross those bridges and connect with others. You know, for example, we do events that are happening in London, Singapore, Mumbai, Glasgow, South Africa.

And, you know, Buenos Aires. So what I’m hoping is that somebody here in America or in any other country, when they see that there’s something going on in Buenos Aires in the Hacking HR community, that’s a bridge that we’re building. So the first take away is you’ve got a bridge now. You’ve got the opportunity to cross it and understand what people are in the same space in

which you are what they’re doing and what you can learn from them and what you can share with them so that they also learn from you. So I think that’s perhaps the main learning out of this experience. It is the fact that people can build a community while participating in Hacking HR and of course, the second thing is more, you know, kind of like knowledge, information, because we cover so many areas, you know,

you can expect to participate in an event that is talking about culture, but maybe you participating in other events talking about artificial intelligence, and maybe then you move onto another event that is talking about digital transformation. So all of the chapters and globally we’re doing we’re covering basically everything that pertains to the fun areas of HR, it depends on the event that people are joining, but always they will get some great content and great information.

So I think it’s these two things. Number one, it is the fact that they come to participate in a community-based organization. And number two, it is the fact that there are some interesting ideas and interesting knowledge share knowledge shared during that one event that people are participating in. And the topics vary depending on what the event is, what the event is about, what the chapter is putting together.

Timothy Reitsma

I didn’t even actually think about that, about, you know, especially if you have a team or maybe you’re taking on a team, managing a team in a different country, or maybe you’re moving somewhere and you need to really understand the nature of how work is done in that particular place.

Yeah, I think in my career I had an opportunity to lead in and help build a team in Japan. I could have used you to see if it would’ve saved a lot of trial and error in, you know because managing people is very different from North America to a place like Japan. And the work is very different. 

Enrique Rubio

Work is different. And even though we have some commonalities. Right. Listen, HR challenges, workplace challenges. Everything is different. You know, like people, there’s a different culture. There are different weight ways to tackle problems. There are different ways to collaborate. There are different ways to promote innovation.

There are different ways to think about diversity and inclusion. So all of this is a matter in a globalized world. Now, there are. I mean, you can you know, you go to LinkedIn. You can just look for somebody talking and say, hey, you know a team. You know what’s going on. I know you are talking coming to Flagstaff, Arizona. Now, we just have a conversation about this one thing and maybe you think what this thing, guys, you know, he’s crazy.

I mean, like, I don’t even know where he is. But on the other hand, if we have the bridge, which is Hacking HR, then you say HR. You know, I, I mean, I’m in Hacking HR in Flagstaff. Do you have time to have a conversation about this one thing or that one thing? So that creates sort of a better, you know, excuse, if you will, to connect. 

Timothy Reitsma

I think it’s great. Yeah. Versus just a random cold call or cold email on through LinkedIn or through it through your network. And so I kind of want to just take a step back. And I didn’t actually pose this question to you ahead of time, so maybe I’ll put you on the spot a little bit. But what sorts of what does human resources mean to you? 

Enrique Rubio

Well, that’s a great question. I think. When I think about human resources, I think about the function that is in charge of doing everything that pertains to people in an organization. And when I say people I mean internal, right? It doesn’t necessarily mean people outside of the organization, which, of course, they are related, but it’s mostly people inside the organization. 

Enrique Rubio

So HR, as a function, is in charge of doing everything that pertains to leading people to manage processes that are related to people in any given organization. So that is a large bucket of things which includes, of course, the core traditional HR functionality meaning, you know, hiring, firing, recruitment, attracting talent, you know, sort of ensuring some level of compliance and whatnot.

But it also includes a lot of other things that have not been traditionally included in the core bucket of HR features and functionalities, if you will, and some of those things are like design, thinking, agility, experienced coach or leadership coaching, mentoring, digital transformation, innovation.

So all of those areas that somehow impact the world, the work that people do and require people to do some kind of work, HR must be in there. Now, there’s a foundation of this, of course, and one foundation that is the first part of the HR and is H of HR. It is the human part of it. Unfortunately, you know,

HR as a concept came to exist like about a hundred and twenty years ago, you know, with the advent of the industrial age, particularly the second industrial revolution at the end of the eighteen hundreds. And the concept of HR came to exist because companies were standardizing their processes and they wanted people to do the same thing day in and day out for 14 hours every day.

So HR came to exist as a concept to ensure that people were hired, fired, paid and, you know, enforced into processes that were in place. Right. Of course, that concept has radically evolved over time, but very often HR continues to be a very transactional administrative function that only basically, you know, is administrating processes instead of, like, truly unleashing people’s

potential—building an organization that is based on humanity, love, empathy, caring, understanding. To me, HR is a function that deals with everything pertaining to people. But it has to do it in a way that is, you know, beginning with the person, with empathy, with the human mind. And that’s something that we have not reached yet, by the way. 

Timothy Reitsma

So that’s interesting. You know, I agree with you. And, you know, traditionally, it’s you know, human resources came from an idea of the transaction and transactional process. And when you say we haven’t gotten there yet. What’s holding us back? 

Enrique Rubio

Our mindset is simple. I respect that question pretty quickly because that’s the answer. You know, it’s funny because it’s like, you know, when you think about, you know, basic things in life, like, for example. You know, getting good physical shape. Let me give you that example. You know, getting good physical shape.

What do you need to get in good physical shape? You need a workout. You need to have good nutrition. Those 2 Things are literally, you know, in your reach. If you don’t have to be you don’t have to be wealthy. You don’t have to be to have all these resources. You don’t have to have, you know, a lot of, you know, things and equipment and things, you know, to eat well and to exercise, you know, stuff like continually, if you will. 

Enrique Rubio

The same thing happens in HR You know, it is for the people when getting better shape, better physical shape. It is not about their mindsets. You know, when you decide to eat more chocolate than you should be eating, it is your mindset. You know, it is you thinking, oh, I need chocolate. Right. So it is not it is nothing else.

When you think about I cannot go out for wrong because. Well, this or that, it is, you know, putting yourself all this in all these. So I think it is that it’s a matter of mindset. Then, you know, we have the tools. We have the knowledge. We have the information. We have the infrastructure. We have a network. 

Enrique Rubio

We have all that we need to make this happen is just that, you know, somehow people doing this are they feel more comfortable doing the same things that they’ve done for a long time, in the same way, they feel that doing things differently means leaving behind things that they are very dear of, like, you know, the way they run the process and why not? And maybe, more importantly,

it is scary to do things in a different way because you don’t know what your place would be in a different world. You know, if you know what you do every day and you continue to do that, you have some level of comfort. But if you start doing things differently, then it becomes complicated because then you have to learn your skills, your capabilities.

You’ve got to do things in a different way. And that becomes a little scary for people. HR is not really known for being the most innovative or risk-taking function. So I think that’s part of what’s holding us back. 

Timothy Reitsma

Yeah, as I’m listening to you speak, I can completely relate. Know I’ve worked in organizations that are very traditional, who were very traditional, as well as organizations that were very progressive in terms of HR, you know, where HR was seen as a transaction. Right.

You need to figure out something on my paystub or I need to learn about my benefits or I need to get to a resource or a forum in order to track my tech allowance or that type of thing. But it’s definitely more than that. And so, you know, your online community is LinkedIn alone is over 80000 people.

So I get a sense that there are people interested in this and in figuring out how to. Well, in a sense, hack HR. And so, you know what? Where do you see this going? Where, you know, you’ve got really good growth chapters all over the world and people are understanding that we need to change. We need to change how we are perceived in our workplaces as more than just a transaction. So where do you see HR going? 

Enrique Rubio

Where do I see HR going? That’s a great question. There are four things I started talking about, something that I call the new value proposition for HR. And I start talking about these three years ago. There are four things that I think are important in this new value proposition.

There are four elements. Element number one is people we got we must transition out of process-based thinking to people-based thinking.

Let me give you one example of that. The way candidates were having treated in the marketplace, you know, I don’t if it does happen to you, but it’s happened to me personally. I get called to an interview and they call me and they say, oh, you’re awesome. Interview number one, interview number two, interview number three, then radio silence. Nothing happens.

I call them back. I send them almost nothing. And is that the way to treat a person, a human being? No. Do I want to work for the company that treated me that way? No, I don’t want to work with them anymore. So this is the thing. And that’s just one tiny, tiny, tiny example of the things that I need that I think need to change in HR. So maybe for the company, the process is you call the person.

If the person does not qualify, you know, you discard the person. Like if who was a responsible cop. Right. You know you don’t call them anymore. Maybe that’s what the process maybe not in that way, but maybe that’s what the process in place.

Now, if you instead of thinking about the process, you think of the human that is behind the process and you know that you are creating expectations and somebody when you’re offering them the opportunity for an interview and when you create expectations, they also have expectations from you.

Then you start thinking differently about the way you work. Because for you is not just doing a process to achieve an outcome or an output for you. It is how you can build relationships. How can I put these humans first so out of the new value proposition? And that’s one example in the recruitment space, which is kind of pretty broken.

But there are many other examples. You know, performance management is one of them. you know, like every cell in my body hates the annual rating based performance management. And it’s not just I don’t just hate it because it’s you know, because I, you know, like out of the blue, I decided that I hate this thing.

It doesn’t work. We all know and with you know, with research for a long time. And we’ve put in evidence that an annual rating based performance management does not work to drive better performance, to increase engagement, motivation, and to provide a better employee experience at work.

However, many companies remain something encroached in that approach because it is the process that they have in place now. If they would change their minds from the process to the human, they would understand that people are expecting to hear feedback more often that yes, they want to have their salary increases,

but they don’t have the salary increases tied to—they don’t have the performance review tied to a limitation and budget that drives the bonuses or, you know, their increases of what they would have more they want.

These people want to hear what the real feedback is about, even if they don’t get that, they think the salary increase that they are wanting. So anyway, this first element I can talk about, you know, 1000 examples, but the first element is people. The second element is aligning with the business.

This is very, very important. And you may think like, Enrique, come on, that’s so ridiculous. I mean, alignment with the business. Everybody knows that. I mean, everybody should know that. Well, the reality is that when you ask atrip people out there if they know what their business is about, if they know the direction of the organization,

if they know the strategy, I can bet you that 90 percent of HR people do not have an idea of what that is, of what the strategy, the goals, the purpose, their long term vision is. And that creates a problem because how can you help your leaders and your organization succeed in the marketplace?

How can you help them remain sustainable, thriving? And, you know, in the long term, if you know what they are about, if you don’t know the direction in which they are, even more importantly, how do you even know if your processes are either helping or hindering that the achievement of the goals of their organization if you don’t know what those goals are.

So the second element in a new value proposition of HR is aligning with the business. The third element is becoming more innovative and agile. And this is very critical. Our processes in a HR truly suck. And we got to begin with the following: Let me go back to the example of getting in better shape.

If you want to get into better shape because you’re not in good shape right now. Your first step has to be to knowledge that you’re not in good shape. Let me give you my own life. You know, I was a competitive runner 20, 25 years ago for a period of about eight years. I stopped running and I continue to eat as if I was running.

So I gain something like 70 pounds. And I get to a point where else like I don’t feel good with myself. I don’t feel well with myself. I don’t look good. I don’t. I don’t feel like this is not me. I don’t feel well. I’m not in good physical shape. So then they make the determination that I needed to change and now I’m back.

Fortunately, in even better shape than when I was 18 years old, you know, several, several years ago. So, yeah, the point here is that to be agile and innovative, we’ve got to begin with a place of understanding that our processes are not delivering the kind of body that we want them to be.

And once we understand that, then we start thinking, how can we make this process more flexible, better, smoother, more effective, more efficient, more aligned with the business. And the last element is technology. I think biology. I’m leaving the last element purposefully at the technology, possibly at the end, because many companies are making the mistake, to begin with, technology,

instead of using technology as a tool to leverage and to sort of amplifying the possibilities of the HR function anyway. Where do I see the HR of the future? I see an HR that is focused on four things. Number one, putting people first. Number two, truly aligning with the business.

Number three, becoming more agile and more innovative. And number four, leveraging on technology to amplify and do better what they should be doing better and more effective if you will. That was a long answer to your question. 

Timothy Reitsma

It was. However, I. I really appreciate that. And going through my mind as well, we could just do an entire podcast series on these four pieces. And so we may have to actually pick that, pick that up. And you know, as you’re talking, like number one, people-based focus on people. Your example of recruiting, it’s happened to me numerous times and it doesn’t feel good.

We need to treat people as people and then aligning with the business. All know I’ve heard from HR recruiters who also can get, you know, a dozen employees or does sorry, new positions that need to recruit for that. They didn’t have a clue that they were coming. And so, you know,

it just it is a potential bottleneck for the growth of the organization. So having human resources sitting at that executive table, if you will, planning the strategy, understanding where the business is going to innovate and being agile, you know, being able to shift and change. And then the technology, and I see this in a lot of organizations is, oh, you know, we need to revise a process. So we need to get a new piece of technology.

So, you know, let’s sit back and really, really understand what we’re trying to do and then go to technology and finally have the technology. So, you know, I know. 

Enrique Rubio

I just want to add one comment where you’re saying that is so critical and we have to understand. We have to begin. With people and processes, and then at technology, let me give you one example of doing the wrong thing, I don’t if you remember, last year Amazon rolled out an artificial intelligence-based recruitment platform.

It was designed unfortunately, it was designed by a non-diverse male team. I don’t know whether, you know, what the app, the composition of the team was exactly, but it was mostly male. So what happened was that the tool they designed because, you know, technology is at the end of the day, algorithms that are designed by humans because they are designed by humans.

They have the possibility of bringing with them the biases that humans have. So what happened with this algorithm was that it was discriminating against women, particularly women of color. So now is that was the problem, the technology? The answer is no.

The problem was not the technology but was the process that was behind the design of that technology. That’s why it is so important that people understand that technology is the last step in the process. You only bring it when you’re ready when your processes are ready. When you have, you know, a streamlined, simplified a made everything better. And then you bring bringing technology to help you amplify to be more effective. 

Timothy Reitsma

I’m curious, you know, your background in engineering. And do you feel that your background in engineering has influenced your way of thinking about HR? 

Enrique Rubio

Yes, definitely. No doubt. You know, one thing that I don’t know anymore is, you know, I don’t know how to build a robot. I used to know how to do that when I was in school. I can not do that anymore because. Well, you know, it’s been more than 10, 15 years out of the practice of electronic engineering. Now, when I bring a mind to the practice of HR and the workplace, in general, is what the underlying principles that you learn in engineering,

you know, being process-oriented, you know, doing project management, systematized information, breaking down complex problems into smaller pieces so that you can tackle it one at a time and build entire piece together. And this is very important because, you know, this one thing that happens with HR, which I think is a painful thing to just talk about if you have a problem in HR, the approach of HR A’s. Wait a second. To solve that problem.

We have to provide a solution that is a name to a solution, meaning we have to provide a full-fledged developed solution in engineering. You don’t do that in engineering or in technology, general. You see a complex problem and you break it up into smaller pieces and you solve one small piece that you solve the other small piece and you solve the other small piece.

So what that gives you is the ability to sort of thing as a module’s, if you will, and they have different teams tackling different areas and then combine everything. Or maybe if you have only one team, the team is moving, moving along the different sections of the problem instead of trying to do an end to end solution.

Now, by the time you get to the last game of the end to end solution, the solution is already obsolete or was not good in the first place. HR does not have that kind of thing. HR tries to do everything end to end using valuable time and valuable or missing valuable feedback in the process.

So I think that’s one of the things that I’m bringing from engineering to the HR world up to the practice of the creation of this community that I am broadening hockey guitar. It is that you know, with engineers think, you know, very process-oriented. I also have my artistic brang, by the way, just in case. And I’m not just left brain. 

Enrique Rubio

I’m not so sure about you. Yeah, I’m an artist, too, you know. And I think, you know, I combine the two brains, which I think is fundamental. And I think the combination of analytical thinking and the emotional human thinking or human skills is critical to succeeding in the workplace. So that’s why

HR will not be able to succeed if all they think about is, you know, just the, you know, processes or, you know, or just like, you know, things that impact humans and engineers won’t be able to succeed, you know, if all they think about is processes and systems, and technology, and not on the human side of it. So I think we need a combination of both. And that’s what I think I’ve been bringing to into the workplace and the practice of HR over the past few years. [34.8s]

Timothy Reitsma

Yeah. Thanks for the kind of running us through that process, because that’s, you know, my brain is very process-oriented as well as, you know, I have a passion for leading people. And so the question that came to mind is, is, okay, so let’s say at HR professional or even a founder of an organization is listening to this. 

Timothy Reitsma

And their task list is 100 things to do. And so it’s like, okay, I know I need to come up with performance management or a check-in process or coaching or, you know, really focus more on my people. But I don’t have time.

And so, you know, we talk about, you know, there’s well, we’re we keep doing things that we were we’ve been doing them or we always have an excuse of not enough time. So. How do we then shift is like a practical way if you have one. One practical way that we can shift our mindset to more focused on people. 

Enrique Rubio

But that’s a great question. And you know, we that there are skills that are human by nature, you know? And it’s funny because I’ve been talking about this one thing very, very strongly over the past couple of weeks. You know, if you think about things that are human by nature, intrinsically human curiosity, innovation, love, caring, tolerance, understanding, imagination, innovation, collaboration with all those things are intrinsically human.

What happens with Ops or what’s happened with Ops over time that we don’t practice those things anymore? So you think about education. You know, the formal education system. You go to a classroom and you’re not taught to be creative. You’re not taught to be a rebel. You’re not taught to be curious. What you’re taught is to follow the lead of a teacher.

And except, you know, there are some exceptions to this theme. But more generally, across the world, education is meant to kill off people’s creativity, innovation, curiosity, imagination, you know, the rebellious spirit in you off or, you know, or in place of that. They put a sort of a more system of obedience and loyalty and just following the existent rules.

Number one, they do go through school and you’re like, well, you know, I was curious before when I was five years old. I’m not curious anymore. And now you’re going to but, you know, you think I’m a little creative. I’m still a little creative. So do you come to work and you think, like, I’m out to conquer the world for me because I’m so creative and I want to come to work and I want to bring all these ideas that you come to work and you start working.

I mean, a boss tells you like, oh, yeah. Those ideas are good. But that’s not how we do things in here that we would do things a year. We follow the process. And if you follow the process, you cannot succeed in this company. So you grow in a company because you are following the process, not because you have a free, rebellious spirit. So for HR to do better.

We got to go back to the basics. I’m going back to the basics means going back to what being human truly means. So HR. We need to start a sort of thinking and behaving like humans. Be curious. Being innovative, being creative, using the imagination and, you know, collaborating with all others.

And whatnot. Let me give you one specific example of this. We are to keep you answer that. I’m giving him a chance. You know, this is the way HR generally operates. There is a problem with the organization. HR comes in and they offer a solution and the solution is implemented, but not very often.

That solution is only, you know, sort of designed by HR and sometimes approved by leadership. Very little. Very, very few times. Thus, HR goes to the company and ask for recommendations, for feedback, for ideas, and whatnot. So instead of coming from a place of the know it all kind of guy in the classroom where, you know, you show yourself as the invincible know it all kind of person.

What if we turned it around and instead of telling people what to do and how to do it. We asked him, hey, we got this problem. Does anybody have an idea on how to do this? One thing, when you start from that place, you’re changing the process here and you’re not coming from a place of telling people what to do.

You are instead collecting the feedback, collecting their knowledge, sort of empowering them to also think with you what the solution of the problem could be and the solution that you implement for whatever problem you’re trying to solve with the way more powerful than if you have done it all by yourself. So anyway, this happens very often in the world of HR.

So what I’m saying here is that instead of starting from a place of no it all, maybe you start from a place of asking it all, which is a little different. 

Timothy Reitsma

I love that. 

Enrique Rubio

That Idea of asking, it all begins with going back to the basics, and with your question, what should HR what is or should be doing right now and HR people to embrace these ideas that we’re talking about. And the answer to me is difficult to implement, but simply to express, which is go back to the basics, allow people to be human.

Allow people to ask questions, ask questions. Be innovative. Take risk, experiment, and one more time. I don’t know when you would be released in the spot, but if it’s in the near term, what happens is that right now we’re going through this tragedy known as the coronavirus. Many companies are all in the same place, the same starting point, which is we have no idea what to do. We have no idea what’s going to happen tomorrow.

We have no idea how we’re going to survive. So this is the thing for HR. Now you’ve got the greatest opportunity of your lifetime in HR to bring everybody to the table and tell him, hey, guys, you know what? You know what to do. Nor do we know what to do. We have no idea what’s gonna happen tomorrow. We have no idea how we’re going to solve this problem.

Now, these are the questions and these are the problems that we’re dealing with. Can we get together and start thinking about how to solve these problems together? So you are creating a powerful experience of empowerment. And that is maybe one greatest step. Just thinking about people, you know, aligning with the business, being a job, innovating, and maybe using the knowledge to help these things happen. 

Timothy Reitsma

No, it’s. You know, I. I’ve got so many more questions. I think we could go we could go on for a couple of hours. But, you know, I think it’s I think you’re absolutely right. And for our listeners, as I think a big takeaway is whether you’re an HR or in sales or you’re a founder or wherever you are in an organization, is get curious, ask questions.

I think that’s what we have to get back to like people in organizations, we’re innately curious and in some cases in some positions where we’re told our to put our curiosity aside and just do the job. But, you know, people inside our organizations have great ideas and we need to create platforms for people to hear that. And that’s where, you know, it comes up to. You know,

I think even hitting all four of your points earlier on or it touches on innovation and technology and aligning and creating those human moments. So, you know, with that, I think, you know, we’ll definitely have you on again as a guest. And in the future. And so I really just want to thank you for coming on. And if people are interested in Hacking HR, where can they find you and what can they expect? 

Enrique Rubio

They can just reach out to maybe a LinkedIn. You know, I think when they put Enrique Rubio in the thing search box, I think I’m the first one there. 

Timothy Reitsma


Enrique Rubio

Or they can just reach out to me via email. That I all you know, I’m always as responsive as possible. You’re happy to connect with your listeners, to continue the conversation, to share more ideas. That’s if that’s the case. 

Timothy Reitsma

Yeah, definitely. And you know, I was just on the Website I’ve been on a number of times now as I’m embarking on a new HR position and looking for a community to ask questions, too. So had to hucking HR. Io and search for your city. There are chapters around the globe and if there isn’t a chapter in your particular area, then, you know, I think you reach out to Ricky and maybe you start one. There are other people in that in your area that could benefit from this. 

Timothy Reitsma

So with that, you know, I want to thank you again for coming on and spending the last half an hour with us. I think it was insightful and a lot of great takeaways as we continue looking at the future of work. And we don’t know what that looks like. We’re in a strange time here in 2020 with the future can change within a matter of hours. 

Enrique Rubio


Timothy Reitsma

So with that, we will wrap it up and for our listeners, you know, head to And we’d love to get your feedback on this podcast as well as our Web site. And if there are any other topics you’d like us to cover, just let us know. So have a great day, everyone. Take care.