How To Bring Creativity & Fun To Remote Teams (with Paul Lopushinsky from Playficient)

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Timothy Reitsma Many organizations shifted to remote this year. And with that working hard to figure out how to continue to bring creativity, fun, and connection to their teams. But how? If we can't meet in person, play that game of ping pong, jump into a brainstorm with a whiteboard, what do we do? My guest today is an expert at how companies can create and enhance a culture of creativity and play. He has worked with various companies on how to drive a culture of employee-driven initiatives with a focus on play. Using the eight-play personalities.

Thanks for tuning in. I'm Tim Reitsma, the resident host of People Managing People. Welcome to the podcast where people managing people. And we want to lead and manage better. We're owners, founders, entrepreneurs. We're middle managers. We're team leaders. We're managing people. And yes, we do human resources, but we're not HR, at least not in the traditional sense. We're on a mission to help people lead and manage their teams and organizations more effectively.

So if you want to lead and manage better. If you want to become a better organizational leader and a more effective people manager, then join us. Keep listening to the podcast to find the tips, tricks, and tools you need to recruit, retain, manage, and lead your people and organization more effectively. And while listening to the show, please subscribe and join our mailing list on peoplemanagingpeople.com to stay up to date with all that's going on. 

Welcome, Paul. Thanks for joining me on the People Managing People podcast. It's a pleasure to have you here.

Paul Lopushinsky Hi Tim. Thanks for having me on. 

Timothy Reitsma Yeah. And so before we jump into it, just tell our audience tell our guests a little bit about yourself, about your consulting company, and your journey into consulting. I think it's fascinating to just start there. 

Paul Lopushinsky Sure. So the company I run is called Playficient. And the idea that I help with organizations is helping organizations cut through the bull and focus on what really matters on the employee experience. So, I mean, we do that through four areas, one being looking beyond, you know, the ping pong table and the force, fun and creating playful workplaces, which we'll talk about today. Another is working on the employee onboarding process. Another is POI experience design through design thinking.

Another one is creating employee journey maps by using the ancient old story. Our technique of storytelling bit about early 2018. I was at my old job board listening to podcasts and when I was listening to was about was called Side hustles School. And it's about creating side businesses that mostly turn into full-time businesses. There's a guy who had a fairly similar background to me as far as his work background went as a user experience designer, product manager, project manager.

They start to add incorporate more humor into workplace presentations. And eventually, he formed a company around helping organizations, organizations make use of humor in the workplace. And I reached out to him and at the time I was doing a lot of improv comedy. So I tried it out at various events of how to use improv in the workplace to improve communication and teamwork. Eventually, that evolves more into creating playful workplaces, and then they start to pull more from user experience, design areas, and product management, which I worked in the past. I actually don't have a people's cultural background and it starts to flesh out a little more. 

And because I worked on user onboarding, I start to take a lot of concepts from that area, apply it to employee onboarding or anything with the user experience. I took a lot of areas from there and made use of it in the employee experience. So it's evolved over time and it's shifted. I think now I feel pretty good and what my offerings are more focusing on those key things, an employee experience, design.

And, you know, again, when it comes with playful cultures, I see a lot of organizations kind of can get it wrong where they think all they really need is like, all right, well, we'll set aside time and basically, quote-unquote, force fun and we just need a ping pong table and that will take care of everything. And that's not the case. 

Timothy Reitsma Yeah, that's not the case at all. I've known organizations that invest in the ping pong table or the foosball table or whatever it is, but nobody wants to play it. Its people are afraid to play because it may take away from work. And so even just defining what that actually means is a whole probably conversation we could have at another time as well as employee experience. That whole journey of bringing on employees into an organization. And, you know, there's a lot of people who listen to this podcast who are founders of organizations or leading teams of people who may not have a fully structured or thought out onboarding experience.

And I think that would be a fascinating podcast in the future, especially as we are onboarding nowadays, at least the company that I work at full time, onboarding 100 percent remotely, even if they're living in the same city. We're not in the office. So how does it? How do we bring in that employee experience into onboarding as well as, you know, those first couple weeks that are so crucial to an employee? But you know what really interested me when we start talking about recording a podcast was this idea of play.

And, you know, I'm sitting here in my home office and I work for a full time for an organization as the head of people in culture and our leadership team. And we've talked even about, OK, so how are we still continuing to bring that fun into our culture? And so what are your thoughts and how are companies shifting and still remaining connected with their teams and in that fun and playful way? 

Paul Lopushinsky So there's been some in my mind, some strange kind of benefits have come about as a result of this. You know, Covid, where people have been forced to be working more remote is the main thing is I've seen a lot of organizations really cutting back on the quote-unquote, forced fun activities. You know, if you think about it. 

Some organizations, they try and do you all the, you know, kind of leaping around, goofing around, you know, Nerf gunfights, for better lack of a stereotypical example where I've talked to people or seen videos where it's like you could clearly tell some people don't want to be there in those cases. And a lot of the things I've been seeing with COVID is leadership management have been a bit like, well, I don't know, like what do you guys suggest instead of trying all these things without really getting a lot of employee insight.

They've given the floor to a lot of employees to say, OK, like, what do you guys suggest? There's something interesting. You guys have, for example, some organizations I talk with start to do, you know, remote lunch and learns about whoever wants to talk about any topic can be free to discuss whether that's some programming language they discovered. Their obsession with diamonds or their knowledge about diamonds or any kind of topic that's been really good for getting organizations kind of help discovers more about other individuals, more beyond the office.

Some other ones I've been seeing, you know, for example, you know, somewhere or employees have come for and say, hey, you know, I could teach yoga. I could teach a Zumba class, whatever, over Zoom and or even a cooking class. And, you know, leadership, for the most part, for my symbol. All right. Like, let's try it and see what comes about. And then. It's also, I think, being the case that it's remote. 

For those who don't want to attend. You know, it's much easier to opt-out. And it's not a case of and you're talking earlier about like the ping pong and the foosball going unused, because sometimes at some organizations there's that perception where if people spend too much time that they're not working. And I work to the place that was like that, where there were some issues around the foosball table where some felt others were spending too much time.

To me, it didn't matter as long as they got their work done to others that bug them. So I think the main thing really has been seeing that organizations have really been like. All right. We don't have our office perks anymore. So what can we do about it? You know, and, you know, there's been a lot of really interesting resources online.

I've come up, but like, all right, here's some, you know, virtual things you could do, whether that's, you know, virtual museum tours, you know, Netflix party where we could all watch Netflix at once. You know, Jack Box has gotten really popular. So it's been interesting to really see that pop up of employees having much more of a say in that kind of thing as opposed to before when it was more driven on high by management. 

Timothy Reitsma It's you're speaking a couple of things that are really ringing true to me and I feel that there's more and more need to have employee-driven initiatives vs. looking to, you know, senior leadership or the founders or people of culture to drive different initiatives. And so, you know, if people are coming from that type of organization where it's been, you know, looking for permission to do things versus, hey, let's just try it. How do we shift that culture? How do we shift that mindset? 

Paul Lopushinsky That's not an easy thing to do. And there is that I'm seeing in my mind right now, it's like the the the matrices were basic. It's like things are important, not important, urgent, not urgent. So I see a law of law this over the last few months where a lot of these things like, you know, people development or employee-led initiatives were seen as important but not urgent.

So organizations weren't really focused on that. And I've seen as a result that this is a worldwide event that has definitely shifted that. So it's become a lot more urgent. So it's kind of a disappointing thing to say for a lot of organizations. It was like there, their hand was forced in this situation to really shift that culture because they had no real choice because of this worldwide pandemic. 

And. You know, in an ideal world, they would have identified it earlier and it's easier said than done, of course, to shift if, say, if this was in the normal circumstances or whatever, quote-unquote, normal is these days for an organization to shift more towards that employee employee-led directives or initiatives, because that's something that, you know, some of these companies have been around for years and years and years.

And it's like, well, it's always come from high on management. It's always worked that way. So that's not a thing really where it's like, all right. Yeah, well, we'll change one or two things here. And overnight it's going to be different. There's a quote I always love to use in my presentations from Mary Shelley, who wrote Frankenstein. That's "nothing is so great to the human mind is a great and sudden change." 

And the thing I mean, I think I got that right. But the thing is, you know if some of these organizations to unless they're hand this force like to try and revamp things overnight's, probably going to face a lot of resistance. I always talk about like what's one small step that, you know, organizations could take to start adding and more employees, you know, directives or initiatives.

And I think really at that point like the easy step is just start talking to people and seeing what they suggest. So, you know, in an ideal world, companies would not need a worldwide pandemic to have their hands, especially those that we're pretty much all in office and more, quote-unquote, traditional, you know, to have their hand forced to make use of that. 

But I mean, that that's been the reality is that these last several months. Right. Not as much as I enjoy, like trying to convince organizations to. It's like, well, there you know, there are some organizations I typically find with, for example, the tech who are little more you know, they're more open to those kinds of things. They have issues in other areas. 

But, for example, I guess more traditional, say, like maybe like law or government, they're a little more hesitant and that's understandable. So there's no real easy answer to for that change to come with. And it's not something that happens overnight unless you have a big situation like what's been happening these last six months or so. 

Timothy Reitsma With everybody, you know, in especially small, medium or large companies. 

People are people are busy and people are you know, they're sitting at their home or sitting somewhere working away, not necessarily in that office anymore. Maybe you are maybe there is an office space, but you're the only one in that office space. So creating that culture of employee-driven initiatives. It sounds great. I, I like it. I, I, you know, as a team of one in the organization, I'm part of it and I say that as a team of one. But it's a, you know, there's a lot of support there. 

But. Initiatives come my way all the time, and I just have to say, go for it. You know plan it. Do it. See what happens and really get those ideas off the ground. 

And would you say that you know, we can put out calls for initiatives from different employees or from our employees. But then is it up to people, a culture, or managers to then implement? Or is it you know, anybody can then run with it? 

Paul Lopushinsky That's a good question. I think it really depends. 

I mean, if it's like a small and. If it's a small initiative, it's like, hey, maybe people gather at home and say on Zoom at three o'clock to discuss. I know like what books they've been reading recently? You know, that's not something you overly need to get involved with. Maybe as it grows as you can be. 

But. It's finding that right balance of, you know, being there at a management level, giving them the support and showing like, hey, we got your back on this one hundred percent to try out these things. 

But also, you don't want to get too mean. You know. What's the word I'm looking for? Try and get to micromanage. You have it right and start saying, oh, you know what? We should we can't do this because we have to include this person or, you know, this isn't going to work for so and so for this individual. So it's finding that right balance of giving that support of showing like, hey, you know what? Go for it. Like, I talked with one organization that struggled at first, but then they had, I think, like a vice president who started doing Zoom cooking classes.

And that kind of got the ball rolling of like, oh, you know what? It doesn't matter what position you are at the company. If you have an idea, let's roll that. We'll do our best to support you. So finding that bounce, giving them the support, but also not trying to get to micromanaging depending on what they do. I mean, if it's like a small initiative, of course, let them have free range. Better forget something a little bit larger than you might have to get a little more hands-on. 

Timothy Reitsma I like that example of a V.P. starting a Zoom cooking class because it's. It often takes the leadership to show that initiative as well, to almost give that unwritten permission to go and do something. 

And I think back to a culture report that came out here in British Columbia, a culture scan report that was produced by Sparke Creations. One of the real driving factors of culture is it starts from the top. It starts at the leadership level. And so if we're looking at a culture change, we often say, well, anybody can initiate a culture change. But often people in our organizations look for that unwritten permission. Do you know what I mean? Like, look at our what is our leadership team doing? What is our management team doing? Is that what you see in organizations as well when you go in either to speak or to do some consulting with them. 

Paul Lopushinsky Yeah. Yeah. It's you know, it's always from the top levels and then sometimes, yeah. There are these cases of, you know, it gets all the support, but then it gets or comes from the top and then kind of gets lost somewhere in the middle. And that leads to disarray. That's more for larger organizations. But no, that that's and that's when one these things for sure I've seen these last few months is I see a lot of leadership now, whereas mentioned earlier you know, the important but not urgent I saw for like anything like people development related, you know, keeping appall some workers, you know, employee well-being, mental health stuff. That, of course, is very important but wasn't urgent at the time has. Again, it's unfortunate that this kind of this large event in our world has caused it to be now seen as urgent and come to the forefront. My guess sometimes that's what it takes for leadership and management to acknowledge it and figure out ways to deal with it. That's the case. You know, I wish I didn't need this kind of event to do so. But, you know, c'est la vie. 

Timothy Reitsma

Yeah, yeah. It's the world we're in right now. And it has, fortunately, unfortunately, taken a bit of time for organizations to refocus on what truly matters when it comes to people. 

And it's not just a matter of here are your goals, go do it. But how do we also create that culture of connection, that culture of belonging and not just, you know, offer perks, as you've mentioned earlier, you know, the beer on top and the games tables? But how do we truly drive that culture of connection and fun and creativity? And I mean, this is a good Segway into what I mentioned in the intro, the eight-play personalities. You've talked about this in our conversations, but what are the eight-play personalities and how do they relate to work? 

Paul Lopushinsky Sure. So the eight-play personalities, this comes from the work of Dr. Stuart Brown. He's pretty much the foremost expert in the world on all things play. Before we get into the eight-play personalities, just for some context, everyone can have multiple play personalities. You know, it's not like Myers Briggs where you fall under, like certain ones, but you can have multiple ones, you probably gravitate towards a few of them, you know, and they could change throughout your life.

So maybe you get married, you have kids, you retire, you start a new job, you move somewhere different that play personalities of yours may change. There is one more thing about it. Oh, yes. So and this is something, I guess, law. There are these misconceptions of play not just at the leadership or organizational level, but also the personal level where. What's play for one person is work for someone else. It's basically, you know, the expression one person's trash is another person's treasure. 

So on that note, the eight-play personalities are there is the Joker, the kinesthetic, the explorer, the competitor, the director, the collector, the artist, slash creator, and the storyteller. 

So those are the eight-play personalities. And so just for some examples, the Joker that that's you know, whether that's improv comedy, that's standup comedy, that's being goofy like a little kid. Number two, I say kinesthetic. So that's, you know, movement without, like, competitive things to it. You know, I see the Ceylon Tech companies or me in Vancouver area where we are, you know, companies when they're in the workplace, they have they're in office yoga, you know, their meditation rooms and explore is traveling, learning new languages.

You know, I say like using lunch and learns is a really good way to drive that forward for is the competitor. So of all these eight. The ones I see most organizations use are number one by far as the competitor. And number two is kinesthetic. And some the other one's not so much. And of course, a competitor makes sense. Right. Organizations are competitive by their very nature. Leaders tend to be competitive as a result.

So that's why, you know, you end up with all these organizations who have, you know, the foosball tables and the ping pong tables, you know, beer o'clock Fridays and, you know, video games in the office. Excuse me, and. 

Which is fine. But that's not like for me, I don't gravitate towards that. And then again, there's like the director. So these are people like whether that's literally directing movies or that's, you know, gathering potlucks or gathering events together. And I remember very early on when I was talking about this. So I put their hand up in the room was like, how could anyone ever see this play? And about a quarter of the room dead. So, again, it goes to show that, you know, what's a work for one individual is play for someone else.

Then there's also, you know, the collector. This as well. Anything from collecting hockey cards to one organization did this talk. They had a whole collection of old Apple products in the back, like the old like pretty much all the old variations of iPods, iPhones, even the old IMAX. So then, you know, artist slash creator, that's, you know, companies that run a hackathon. That's a very common one. Or, you know, having when we were in the office, like maybe having a guitar or a keyboard to play on.

A storyteller. Of course, that's something more for people who are into books. You know, book clubs are an easy one to do. Some organizations will have like Dungeons and Dragons nights. That's another one. And I'm a big fan of that, too. So there are all these variations that you could pull from these eight. And I, I'll,  I guess probably the show notes after I could provide a link because there's much more detail I could go into about breaking those eight down.

But, you know, the main thing being that because we all have different personalities when someone doesn't seem so keen to being involved in certain activities, that doesn't mean they're not a team player. It just means they probably don't gravitate towards that, you know, that ping pong table or, you know, the Nerf gunfights, you know, all those for better lack of a term, you know, cliche, Silicon Valley playful offerings in offices. 

Timothy Reitsma I was just thinking of an image in my mind, yeah. The Nerf guns and playing around and I could see and I managed teams who gravitate towards that side of play. 

And there's nothing wrong with that. But I've also managed a team to really gravitated towards. I don't know the personality, the different personality or play personality, but really towards more of that artist's side of things. They really wanted that draft thing out and draw things out. And so how would then organizations, you know, especially we're all remote. We're all dispersed. Is this something that you've seen companies bring into onboarding and to really understand, OK, how do you as an individual, what resonates most with you, or is it? Yeah, I'm curious how organizations can bring this into. Yeah. Into their teams and continue to build that engagement and that creativity. 

Paul Lopushinsky Sure. Yeah. I think depending on the company size stuff, it's like a smaller company and you know, you're bringing in people slowly. It's much easier to find out early on that, OK, you know, this individual kind of prefers these kinds of things. So we, you know, we could suggest like, oh, if you can do something employee-led, here some things that you could do or here, some things that we could offer to you.

Again, that's trying to drive that, figuring out what their needs are. And, you know, you mentioned they're like having a team that gravitated towards you mostly, you know, kind of like the like Nerf gunfights or whatnot, you know, more of that extrovert and maybe more competitive nature. And again, that's fine. And I think that's the thing is as you get larger as an organization, you know. It's not true for everything, but no. 

For example, like few people typically in sales, like, for example, are typical, you know, more extroverted and are probably more competitive by nature. Not always. But it's probably that gives you an idea like, OK. If our sales team here, they're probably going to be more into those kinds of activities or, you know, right now, I guess, like, well, maybe they will play Jack Box or something or some, you know, video game online or some kind of board game online, something competitive.

But then, you know, I guess, for example, you know, again, this is a bit stereotyping, but you have software developers might be a little more introverted and might be you know, as I mentioned, hackathon. Which kind of artist slash creator thing? Well, that's something they could do. Or, you know, I worked an organization where a bunch of them were into this card game, Magic, the gathering. And, you know, that kind of just came about organically at the organization. I tried to join. It was they realized how much money I think that game could be. But anyways. Yeah. Yeah.

Because that's the thing. It's like, well, it's easy to say if you have a smaller organization, the larger one, it's like, well, you could probably have more of a general idea like you could kind of feel like. Breaking it down by department might have a better way about is like if you do have a sales team, it's like I mean, I'm not saying that everyone's going to be that way, but having something that's more than competitive nature is probably going to suit them. But you should always ask them.

That's always a thing of, you know, the last thing I want organizations doing is, you know, coming up with all these things they could do for all the play personalities like locking themselves away and then throwing it out there and be like, all right, guys, enjoy it. It's more having that conversation with employees and even some cases employees just, you know, more or less will do their work. And, you know, I guess we're all home now, but do their work and then shut their laptop after. And that's totally fine as well. 

Like, if they need to blow off some steam, otherwise there are other options for them. So. Again, comes down to, you know, teams. 

We'll give you a better idea of people again like it's the thing like we have multiple play personalities. 

But you will find if people gravitate towards maybe, you know, certain positions that tend to be maybe more extroverted or people interaction, they might typically have similar play personalities. That's not a guarantee but is like a good framework or starting point. 

Timothy Reitsma It's thinking of even on the onboarding experience, peace, and potentially, you know, curating questions in order to derive maybe a play personality on an onboarding questionnaire. And in trying to see if anybody else in an organization should be, you know, an onboarding buddy or that type of thing. There are ways you could do that, whether it's, you know, your Excel-based onboarding or you've got a trail system and questions that you can ask. But also, I think a lot of organizations use tools like Slack in setting up different channels. OK. I'd like to drink beer, so I'm going to join the beer channel or I don't like beer, but I do like pets. So I'm going to join the pets channel and. 

Paul Lopushinsky That's right like dogs are huge. 

Timothy Reitsma Yeah, exactly right. Or adventure photos. I want to be hiking every weekend. And so I want to meet up with or follow other people that are also involved in that adventure type thing. So there are ways that we can, as leaders in organizations encourage that culture, but also as leaders are not a roadblock to creating that type of culture. I think that's where I want to kind of get to as we kind of wrap up our conversation. Yeah. And so for those who are listening, whether you're a people leader, you're leading a company. Look, it's what could somebody start to do it today in order to say, hey, we're remote. We'll likely be remote for the next while. How do I bring play and creativity and engagement and fun and everything else into the organization without quote-unquote forcing it? 

Paul Lopushinsky Yeah. Like that one small step thing. It's really just talking to employees, like sending something out there, whether that's a survey, whether that's just having a one on one video call, like maybe in Slack channel. 

I'll be like suggestions for things we could do for fun. Like, again, the last thing I think like a people team should be doing is kind of locking themselves away without getting outside input, but talking with employees and saying, like, hey, guys, like, you know, we're still gonna be here while I'm, of course, a lot of organizations were these last few months have tried different things or come up with different things as time has gone on.

So now it's maybe a good time to kind of review and says, like, you know as well as we've been away, like what's been working so far is keeping your help, keeping you engaged or, you know, keeping things fun or as their new activities that you think we could do. Yeah, I think a lot of it is just having those ongoing conversations like it doesn't need to be this big plan or anything. It's just picking up what works. And I know for it, for a lot of people, they think, oh, my God, like, am I going to ask how many people am I gonna need to ask? Is it like we send this out to hundreds of people, maybe at organizations like, well, just start with five people.

So there's a good rule in the user experience design called Rule five, where if you're testing some idea out, product out service out, usually five users is more than enough to start identifying patterns of things that work and things that don't. And of course, we can identify those patterns then you could expand that to more than five users by even just picking five employees. And just I think it's less maybe about the specific activities, but more picking up maybe common language or common things that rise in patterns that maybe it's like, oh, you know, I wish we had more time together or, you know, I wish maybe we had more of a set time to do things. Or maybe I wish we had more say in what things get done. So get together.

The main thing is just starting to have these conversations with employees, whether it's, you know, a survey or Slack poll, Slack message or, you know, a call over Zoom with people, that's just kind of, you know, getting that ball rolling. And that's always how I had my workshops or webinars. It's like, again, with that that Mary Shelley quote I said of "nothing is more painful to the human mind than a great and sudden change".

You don't need to revamp everything and be like I write tomorrow. Everything's going to be different about how we engage? How do we work? So it's just taking that small step. And to me, I suggest to people, it's like on this front, just go talk to people, seeing how they've been feeling these last few months as regards to, you know, what we've been offering for fun. And right now, as for my kids and what things have been working and where can we improve on it? 

Timothy Reitsma It sounds too easy, Paul. It sounds way too easy. 

Paul Lopushinsky What was it, Occham's Razor? Is it like the best solution is typically the simplest one? 

Timothy Reitsma That's right. It's often I find we try to over-engineer a solution that is really just as simple as we just ask a few people. Let's take off our headphones. That's how we're listening to this podcast. And go on Slack or messenger whatever. Pick up the phone and ask a few people, not just ask the question, are you engaged? Yes or no. But go deeper than that.

Paul Lopushinsky Tells you that tells you like Next, you have to, like, dig in. And that's on another note. Like I said, there's rule five for testing. There's always the five why's, which is if someone gives you an answer to something, it's like asking why to something in that answer and then kind of keep digging. Maybe once you get down to five why's, you'll find that root cause. 

Timothy Reitsma Yeah, it's it's. Yeah. Are you engaged? OK, well why. What's keeping you engaged or. No. OK. So tell me more. What would you like to see more? I wish we had a book club. OK. What's holding you back from starting a book club. I didn't know I had permission to start one. Well, I'm giving you permission to start with.

Paul Lopushinsky And why did you not realize that? 

Timothy Reitsma Yeah, exactly what was the barrier to you for realizing that, you know, it's using that simple technique, a little bit of coaching. Coaching question with what and how. And the five why technique for. For process improvement and root cause. Very simple. So there you go. Guests are sorry listeners. You've got to the eight-play personalities and a basic understanding of what they are, as well as a real simple takeaway to go start asking our employees about, are you not? Are you engaged? Yes or no? But do we have enough fun and creativity in the organization while we're over the remote? And if the answer is no, then how do we build that in? And I think you've given us a bit of a framework there, Paul. So thanks for that. 

Paul Lopushinsky No problem. 

Timothy Reitsma And how do people find you? 

Paul Lopushinsky Yeah. The best way is through my Website Playficient. It's www.playficient.com. So it's combining the words proficient and play together on there. And I guess it's part of the show itself, we add a link. I have a big, long, long blog post about the play personalities. You know what's make how to make use of them? Why organizations tend not to make use of them? You know the benefits of doing them on LinkedIn. I don't do a whole lot of Twitter. I find maybe I should step up my game more but definitely LinkedIn I'm much more active.

Paul Lopushinsky. Again, like, you know, it's a bit of a hard to find the last name bygones probably be in the show notes if you're ever on any Slack HR channels. You know, I guess the big ones being I guess there's like people, people, people, geeks, hacking H.R. I'm typically and those everyone's smile like just seeing what people are saying. I might chime in here and there with either some thoughts or question prompts. Well, that's always the best way to find me. 

Timothy Reitsma Perfect. Yeah. Thanks. Thanks for that, Paul. And for our listeners. Yeah. If you like what you heard I think is resonating with you. Love your comments. 

When we in LinkedIn or direct, or find a way to get a hold of us peoplemanagingpeople.com just always love to hear feedback and comments on the podcast. And so with that, thanks again, Paul, and to our listeners. And we hope you have a great day.

Paul Lopushinsky Thanks for having me.

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