Studies have found that managers are more likely to give kind but generic feedback when it’s directed to a woman. This unconscious bias is causing women to miss out on valuable learning and development opportunities. So what can we do about it?
In this episode, host Becca Banyard is joined by Dr. Rosina Racioppi—President & CEO at WOMEN Unlimited, Inc—to talk about how to identify and remove unconscious bias, what it looks like to have an inclusive culture of feedback and how to establish one at your own organization, as well as some tips for what women can do if they feel they aren’t receiving the constructive feedback that they deserve.
- Dr. Rosina’s background [1:06]
- Spent the first half of her career leading HR in manufacturing.
- She bought WOMEN Unlimited – partnering with corporations who desire to see more women to grow in the organization.
- They’re helping organizations create an inclusive culture that allows women and their managers and the organization’s leaders to understand their role in creating momentum in a woman’s career.
- Why is receiving feedback so critical for women in the workplace and in their careers? [2:42]
- Feedback is critical for everyone.
- Not having feedback is like driving a car without a dashboard – you don’t really know where you’re going.
- For many women, they’re not asking the right questions nor are they getting the right guidance that they need.
- Research shows that men tend to get aspirational guidance – women tend to get more transactional feedback.
We can control our destiny if we ask the right question.dr. Rosina Racioppi
- Why are women not receiving the same type of feedback as men? [4:45]
- There’s a lot of bias in the system.
- Men tend to be much more comfortable saying exactly what they want, while women don’t like to talk about themselves – they like their work to speak for them.
- We have to wrap our voice around the work in a way that highlights our aspirations and our interests and we need to ask questions that help us understand what we need to do differently.
- What are some of the questions women should ask and what are some of the practices they can build into their career in order to see growth? [6:53]
- You just have to get comfortable with asking the questions.
- Take a step back and think about the work that you enjoy doing and be honest with yourself if you want to spend the majority of your time doing it. Then you just need to start asking questions.
- Your Board of Directors, your network, people that you can go to and ask for guidance, those relationships help you get outside your own head, get insight that you cannot get on your own, and it is a critical engine for your career growth.
- How can organizations identify and remove unconscious biases? [10:02]
- On an organizational level, it’s very difficult because we are all biased.
- There are a lot of things organizations can do. Like identifying senior leaders, male leaders in particular, to participate as mentors to the women in their program – by doing so, they’re able to see the barriers and challenges that are different than the ones that men see.
- Organizations can build cross mentoring relationships to help male leaders have more sensitivity to understand that women and people of color have a very different experience in the organization and they need to be more curious about that rather than judge them.
- If an organization wants to build feedback into their culture that’s continuous and inclusive, what are some steps that they can take to do this? [12:32]
- Creating a process or a corporate philosophy on how we provide feedback on a continuum.
- In order for an organization to be robust, it needs to have a learning culture. We learn both from the success and the failures. But if managers and individuals are taught to be comfortable with that learning process, then it becomes much more organic and ongoing.
- Examples of stories of when Rosina has worked with women who have experienced career growth as a result of increased feedback and how this has impacted their development [15:11]
- When she was doing her research, one woman had shared her goal to move into the senior ranks in the organization. She had a conversation with her senior leader saying she’s hoping to get to this position. And he said, “I would love to promote you, but no one knows you in the organization.”
- So it wasn’t a developmental issue, but it speaks to what a lot of us do – we stay in our own world of comfort, our department, our side of the business – we have to be known across the business in order for people to support our advancement.
- There was also a woman that was in one of their programs who is a woman of color, an engineer, very direct in the way that she speaks. She was struggling with feedback and people were uncomfortable with her style. She was not doing anything wrong, but it was the tone of her voice, the way that she communicated.
- If you want to create strong relationships with people, you need to communicate in a different way and be more mindful of not what you’re saying, but how you’re saying it. It’s a game-changer.
- When she was doing her research, one woman had shared her goal to move into the senior ranks in the organization. She had a conversation with her senior leader saying she’s hoping to get to this position. And he said, “I would love to promote you, but no one knows you in the organization.”
As you’re moving up, it’s not so much about what you say – it’s how you say it.DR. Rosina Racioppi
- What can the manager and the employee do in order to create more comfort so that they can have more free communication? [19:29]
- One of the things that we fail to do when we work in organizations is to have conversations with our manager on how we want to work together.
- We’re all working so hard and we focus on the work itself, but not on how we communicate to discuss the work. If we just have that level setting conversation, we’ll be able to achieve so much more together.
- How do you match the right people? What departments are best suited for each other? [20:38]
- Developmental relationships, one being mentors, are a gift. The best mentors are someone who is very different from you.
- The best mentor programs are cross organizational. You’re not from the same department, you’re not from the same function. The more different the mentor and mentee are, it becomes a richer conversation.
- What are some things that female employees can do if they feel that their career growth is being stunted by a lack of feedback or other gender related biases? [22:05]
- They should create opportunities to meet with different leaders in the organization just to learn more about the company, but also to ask some questions about opportunities.
- Sometimes we don’t realize that people may think we’re just happy where we are if we’re not advocating for ourselves. You have to let them know what you’re bringing to the table so that they can give you opportunities.
- How can you actually share the success that you’re experiencing without coming across as proud in a negative way? [23:24]
- You need to get over yourself. Because if you keep what you do a secret, then no one knows. That’s a problem. You need to have a way that you’re comfortable in sharing your success.
- We also need to sing our praises to our chain of command.
We need to be mindful of who needs to know about the work that we’ve done because we are not working in isolation. We need to cooperate with the people that we work with to achieve bigger goals.DR. Rosina Racioppi
- What is the number one thing that keeps employees happy in the workplace? [26:39]
- People want to know that they’re valued and that their contribution matters.
- If you create that rhythm in your organization where you celebrate the successes and celebrate the people that contribute, then people feel valued.
- What do you personally need to be a successful leader? [27:26]
- You need to know where you’re going – have a clear vision.
- To have a group of individuals that have a shared vision.
Meet Our Guest
As President and CEO of WUI, Dr. Rosina Racioppi leads initiatives to help Fortune 1000 companies cultivate the culture and talent needed to achieve greater growth and profitability. Under her direction, WOMEN Unlimited, Inc. successfully partners with organizations across a wide range of industries to develop their high-potential women and build a pipeline of diverse talent.
Rosina’s past experience helps her lead the WUI team in creating impactful offerings to global organizations. Prior to joining WOMEN Unlimited, Inc., she held executive management positions in human resources at Degussa Corporation, Nextran (a division of Baxter Corporation) and Beechwood Data Systems. She has over 25 years of experience in Organization Planning and Development, Compensation and Benefits, Training and Development, Safety, Quality Management, Staffing and Employee Relations.
Rosina earned her doctorate and master’s degrees in education from the University of Pennsylvania. Her dissertation, “Women’s Mentoring Wisdom” focused on how women effectively use mentoring at the all-important mid-career level.
In addition to serving on the Advisory Council for the University of Pennsylvania CLO Alumni Network, Rosina is on the Advisory Board of The New Historia. She is a member of The Women’s Business Collaborative where she chairs the Training and Development Committee. Rosina is a seasoned keynote speaker, an author of several books, and a key contributor to major business publications.
In order for an organization to be robust, it needs to have a learning culture.dr. Rosina Racioppi
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- Connect with Dr. Rosina on LinkedIn
- Check out WOMEN Unlimited, Inc
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Read The Transcript:
We’re trying out transcribing our podcasts using a software program. Please forgive any typos as the bot isn’t correct 100% of the time.
Becca Banyard: Studies have found that managers are more likely to give kind but generic feedback when it's directed to a woman. While it might feel nice in the moment to receive positive feedback, this unconscious bias is causing women to miss out on valuable learning and development opportunities. So what can we do about it?
Welcome to the People Managing People Podcast. We're on a mission to build a better world of work and to help you create happy, healthy, and productive workplaces. I'm your host, Becca Banyard!
Today I'm joined by Dr. Rosina Racioppi, President and CEO at WOMEN Unlimited. She's going to be sharing with us how to identify and remove unconscious bias, what it looks like to have an inclusive culture of feedback and how to establish one at your own organization, as well as some tips for what women can do if they feel they aren't receiving the constructive feedback that they deserve. So stay tuned!
Hello and welcome to the show, Rosina. It's great to have you here today.
Rosina Racioppi: Becca, thanks so much. I was looking forward to our conversation today.
Becca Banyard: Can you just share with our audience a little bit about yourself and what you do?
Rosina Racioppi: Wonderful. Well, I'm happy to. I spent the first half of my career leading HR functions, mostly in manufacturing concerns, chemical industry.
Along the way I met this woman, Jean Otte, who was actually the founder of WOMEN Unlimited. And I joined her organization, helped her grow the organization, eventually bought the business from her. What do we do at WOMEN Unlimited? Well, for the past 29 years, we've been partnering with corporations who have a desire to see more women advance as leaders in their organization.
We have designed development experiences for women that help them accelerate their career, get the momentum that they're looking to create so they can achieve the goals that they desire in their career. We focus on the key inflection points that women tend to get stuck in the talent pipeline, early career, mid career, and at the executive level.
So, you know, we like to think about the work that we do as helping organizations create an inclusive culture that allows women and their managers and the organization's leaders understand their role in creating momentum in a woman's career.
Becca Banyard: Beautiful. What a great vision. So with the conversation around feedback, we're going to be talking specifically about feedback as it pertains to women in the workplace. So can you give a little bit of background on why receiving feedback is so critical for women in the workplace and in their careers?
Rosina Racioppi: Yeah. Well, feedback is critical for everyone, right? One of my mentors often said, not having feedback is like driving a car without a dashboard. You don't really know where you're going. You're moving, but you don't know where you're going.
And for women, I'll ask the women in the program that attend our program - how many of you hear this as feedback? You're doing a great job. Just keep doing what you're doing. While that may feel good, it's like a placebo. Wow, I'm doing a good job.
If you really think about it, it doesn't really tell you anything, right? So I just keep doing what I'm doing. Does that mean I just stand still? I can't go anywhere? Like where is the direction? Where is the helpful insight that helps me understand what are the things I need to do more of, less of, differently so I don't get stuck in the talent pipeline?
So for many women, it's just that they're not getting, they're not asking the right questions nor are they getting the right kinds of guidance that they need to. And we know in research that men tend to get aspirational guidance. Here's how you get ready for that next role. You need this type of experience.
Women tend to get more transactional feedback. You did really good on this report, our, after the fact kind of feedback where men get that preparatory type of feedback that helps them set the stage. So when we look at the numbers in organizations that women tend to get stalled, even at that first supervisory role, it's no surprise.
They're not getting prepped for it. They're not getting ready for it. And so we focus on, while this all may be true, all of what I'm saying is the reality that women upgrade in, we can control our destiny if we ask the right question.
Becca Banyard: So why are women not receiving the same type of feedback as men?
Rosina Racioppi: There's a whole host of reasons. I think there's a lot of bias in the system. There are assumptions people make. This is an overgeneralization method. That doesn't mean that all men do this and all women do that. But from my experience and what we see in research, men tend to be much more comfortable saying, I think I'd like to get ready for that BP spot.
What are some things I need to be thinking? Where women, even today in 2023, what we hear from women is, I really don't like to talk about myself. I like my work to speak for me. Well, what happens if we don't want to self advocate and we want our work to speak for us, how do we know how people are interpreting the work that we're doing?
And what if we're doing a job and doing functions that we're very capable, maybe extremely capable at doing, but we're so tired of doing this work. We want to do something different. If we let our work speak for us, we're just going to get another job that is encompassing all this work that we really don't want to do anymore.
So we have to wrap our voice around the work in a way that highlights our aspirations and our interests, right? And we need to ask questions that help us understand what do we need to do different. And so that's what I see as the like high level difference. Men aren't afraid to say, I want this job. And women tend to shy away from, putting a stake in the ground saying this is what I want.
Becca Banyard: Yeah. It sounds like there's two issues at play. One is unconscious bias, causing managers not to give more detailed feedback and offer that level of insight into how they can grow. But then the other problem is that women aren't asking the right questions and they're not necessarily talking about themselves in the same way that men are.
So I want to address both of those issues. Let's start off with the questions that women can ask. What do you recommend a woman in her career right now start doing in order to ask the right questions? What are some of the questions they should ask? And what are some of the practices they can build into their career in order to see growth?
Rosina Racioppi: Well, and the good news, Becca, is these are really easy things to do. You just have to get comfortable with asking the questions, right? So I think the first thing you really need to do is to take a step back and really think about the work that you enjoy doing. All of us have skills and capabilities.
And there's a subset of those skills and capabilities that we really enjoy doing. And be honest with yourself, like if I wanted to spend the majority of my time doing X, what would that be? Like for me, I'm really good at math and analytics. I do not enjoy doing it. So I never talk about that. I try and shy away from those type of roles.
So think about, I mean, it's important to really know yourself and know what you want. Once you know that, then you just need to start asking questions. WOMEN Unlimited focuses the work that we do on mentoring, education, and networking. And the mentoring and the networking are relationship skills.
Your Board of Directors, your network, people that you can go to and ask for guidance, those relationships help you get outside your own head, get insight that you cannot get on your own, and it is a critical engine for your career growth. So once you have that insight of, here's some things that I think I want to build my career on, then you need to go about and ask people some questions.
I'm thinking about moving into, a more senior role in marketing. These are the things that I've been doing. What should I be thinking about in order to prepare myself for that next step? Right? You're just gathering information. It doesn't mean, Oh, if someone tells me to do X, I need to do it.
No. It means, I am fact finding. I want to understand what are some things that I need to do that I want to do to help prepare me for that role. One of the things that I've noticed even in myself in my early career and in the many of the women that are in our programs is we like to have full control over everything that we're doing.
We like to say, Oh, we're really independent. We don't need anybody else. And the fact remains, if we're working in organizations, if we're working with other people, you need all those other people. You need to understand how they see you so asking them that question helps you understand how they're valuing what you're bringing to the table.
Looking at the world through their perspective helps round out your own knowledge. These relationships that we form help us understand the business that we're operating in and helps us understand how we ourselves need to be in order to create the impact that's needed for us to grow and thrive in the organization.
Becca Banyard: So from an organizational perspective then, how can organizations identify and remove the unconscious bias that exists when it comes to how they give feedback to men versus women?
Rosina Racioppi: I think on an organizational level, it's very difficult, right? Because we are all biased. We are, you are, I am, I mean, it's part of the human condition.
And that being said, there are a lot of things organizations can do. One of the many things that our corporate partners do is they identify senior leaders, male leaders in particular, to participate as mentors to the women in our program. And I've seen this throughout my career. It's not that men are coming in and saying, I don't want these women to be affected.
They don't understand what they're doing. It's not intentional. It's very, as it, it's unconscious, right? But by them working with women, mentoring them and talking with them, they get a front row seat to the ways that they are experiencing their organization. They're able to see the barriers and challenges that are different than the ones that men see.
Right? So it helps open their eyes and it helps them be better leaders. A gentleman who was a mentor in our program came up to me at the end of the program and said, I've heard things from the women that I'm mentoring that I never heard from the women that work for me. And it's clear to me that a, they're afraid to tell me. Are they telling me and I'm not hearing it? Which is oftentimes what happens.
So I think it's what organizations can do is build these cross mentoring relationships to help the male leaders have more sensitivity to an understanding that the way that women and people of color, anyone who looks different than them have a very different experience in the organization and they need to be more curious about that rather than just judge it and say that, if I'm not experiencing it, then it can't be true.
Becca Banyard: Yeah, that's so interesting. I love that you brought up getting curious. I think curiosity is such an important and powerful thing amongst leaders. Okay. So we've addressed unconscious bias. So if an organization wants to build feedback into their culture that's continuous and inclusive, what are some steps that they can take to do this?
Rosina Racioppi: I think it's creating a process or I would say maybe a corporate philosophy on how we provide feedback on a continuum, right? Because oftentimes what happens in organizations is you get feedback at performance review that may be every six months or every year. So that intermittent feedback isn't helpful.
But if you're providing feedback on a continual basis, a project's completed, what we'll say to women is, when you complete a project, you should meet with the key leaders that were the users of this information or the product and ask them for feedback. What's the one thing that resonated with you about the work that I did?
It's an easy question to ask. Then this next question to me is the most powerful question to ask. The work is done. If I could do one thing differently that would have really improved the outcome, what would you recommend? Now, the work is done, I can't redo it, I don't have to do anything, it's just for my own lesson, my own understanding, what's something else I could have done differently?
And then that becomes information that I can use next time I'm not at a similar project. Organizations can train managers to do the same thing, right? Can do that, let's just do a debrief. The work is done, what worked well? Notice I'm not starting with, what can we do differently? Which is where I think we always go, but let's really appreciate what went well.
What were the things that you did that each person brought to the situation that contributed to the success and the outcome? Now, everything's good. What's something we can do differently? If we had a chance to do this all over again, what would we do differently that really would have changed the outcome, improve efficiency, whatever it would be, just to help us learn?
So what you're really talking about is not so much a feedback loop, but to create a learning culture, right? This is what we hope for, right? We want, in order for an organization to be robust, it needs to have a learning culture. We learn both from the success and the failures. But if managers are taught and individuals are taught to be comfortable with that learning process, then it becomes much more organic and ongoing.
Becca Banyard: Yeah. Wow. That's great.
So can you provide any examples of stories of when you've worked with women who have experienced career growth as a result of increased feedback and how this has impacted their development?
Rosina Racioppi: I could think of a, when I was doing my research, this one woman had shared her goal was to move into the senior ranks in the organization.
She was working within a division of an organization and happened to have a conversation with her senior leader to say, I'm hoping to get to this position. And he said, I would love to promote you, but no one knows you in the organization. So this really wasn't a developmental issue. But I do think it speaks to what a lot of us do.
We kind of stay into our own world of comfort, right? Our department, our side of the business. But when you start moving into more senior roles, you have to be known across the business in order for people to support your advancement. And this person said to her, If I put your name up there, two people know you out of 15, so no one's going to support you.
That was a gift. He gave her a gift because then what she was able to do with her mentor is get a strategy of how is she going to get to know these senior leaders so they understood the value that she brought to the organization. So, that little piece of feedback isn't always about what you need to do differently.
It could be feedback on what you need to understand in how the organization operates in order for you to achieve the goals that you want. There was also a woman that was in one of our programs who is a woman of color, engineer, very directive in the way that she speaks. Very to the point and direct, which served her extremely well up to a certain point.
And she was struggling with some feedback in her 360 that basically said that people were uncomfortable with her style. I have some thoughts on some things you can do differently and where that might be coming from. We had this great conversation. At the end, she said to me, No one ever told me anything.
And I looked at her and I said, Well, you're a woman of color in a predominantly white organization, who's going to tell you this? She was not doing anything wrong, so to speak, but she was making the tone of her voice, the way that she communicated very deliberately. As you're moving up, it's not so much what you say, it's how you say it.
It's just understanding that if I want to create strong relationships with people, maybe I need to communicate in a different way and be more mindful of not what I'm saying, but how I'm saying it. It became a game-changer. So I do think for managers, the more different you are, gender, race, et cetera, et cetera, from the person that you're managing, sometimes there's a disconnect, right?
And a discomfort in providing feedback that will be helpful. So managers may hedge, right? They may not be direct. They're kind of hinting at what the issue is that they want to say, hoping that the person will get the idea. And oftentimes it's just a muddle of confusion. And that's why I think it's so important for women to really be brave and say, I'm really want to grow my career here. These are the things that I'm focused on. I would love your insight on, am I on track? What should I be thinking about that might be different? Really open to hearing your thoughts and ideas.
Because without that, you're just going to be, hoping you're doing things in the right direction and hope's not a very successful strategy.
Becca Banyard: Yeah. Thank you for sharing those stories.
I'm curious what you would recommend for that manager and the employee to do in order to create more comfort so that they can have more free communication and communication that actually both of them understand if it's going, over one head or under the other that it, it doesn't really work out?
Rosina Racioppi: One of the things that I think we fail to do when we work in organizations is to have conversations with our manager and with our direct reports on how we want to work together. How do we want to share information? How do we want to receive feedback? My style is one way, yours might be different, but let's talk about how we can get the best from one another and how we should work together.
So I think what happens is we're all working so hard and we focus on the work itself, but not on how we communicate to discuss the work. And I think if we just have that level setting conversation, we'll be able to achieve so much more together.
Becca Banyard: Yeah, that's good. I want to go back to something that you said earlier about mentorship and pairing women up with male mentors. In an organization, how do you recommend a leader to set this program up? How do you match the right people? What departments are best suited for each other? Is it cross functional? Could you speak into that a little bit more?
Rosina Racioppi: I think developmental relationships, one being mentors, are a gift. And I think the best mentors are someone who is very different than you, right?
Because it forces you to be very explicit in your thinking. And it also, since they're, they are either a different department, different business, they come in with a whole different perspective to help shape the conversations that you're having. I think a lot of organizations have mentors that are just happening organically.
And I know a lot of the companies that work with us have mentor programs that they've established. I think the best mentor programs are cross organizational. You're not from the same department, you're not from the same function. The more different the mentor and mentee are, it becomes a richer conversation.
Becca Banyard: Yeah. That's great.
Okay. So we're going to wrap things up shortly, but what are some things that female employees can do if they feel that their career growth is being stunted by a lack of feedback or other gender related biases?
Rosina Racioppi: I think they should create opportunities to meet with different leaders in the organization just to learn more about the company, but also to ask some questions about opportunities, maybe what are some areas they should be thinking about as they want to continue to grow.
Sometimes we don't realize that people may think we're just happy where we are if we're not advocating for ourselves. So we need to help people now. No, raise my hand. I really do want to grow in this company. I remind women all the time that leaders in their organization are constantly scanning the resources, the people available to solve the organization's problems.
And if you're not advocating, if you're not letting people know what you bring to the table, so you have to be in conversation with people, letting them know what you're bringing to the table so that they can give you these opportunities.
Becca Banyard: I'm curious as a female myself, earlier, like at the beginning of the conversation, you mentioned how women often want their work to speak for themselves.
And at least from my own perspective as being a woman, I often don't want to feel like I'm coming across as bragging or proud. So how can you actually share the success that you're experiencing, what you're bringing to the table without it just, you know, "speaking for itself", but without coming across as proud, in a negative way?
Rosina Racioppi: This is, you're getting at the heart of the issue that we women face, right?
That we're humble, don't want to put, well, I think you need to get over yourself. Because if you keep what you do a secret, then no one knows. That's a problem. Yes, you need to have a way that you're comfortable in sharing. It could be as simple as, Becca, we just finished this project.
This is what happened. I'm so proud of my team and what we were able to accomplish. Who else do you think would be, would benefit by knowing the work that we did? You can ask a leader that question. Now, I'm not walking around the hallways bragging about the work that I've done, but I don't think I should keep it a secret because then no one can tap into it.
Right? So it's a bit of a conundrum and we as women need to be comfortable doing that. We also need to sing our praises to our chain of command. A note to your manager or stopping by the office, just saying, Hey, I just want you to know we finished this project and we achieved A, B, C, and D. The thing that we often fail to realize is the things that we talk about, the things that we share end up getting repeated.
So if I say to my manager, we did A, B, C, and D, my manager is going to go to his leader or her leader and say, Oh, Becca did A, B, C, and D. It then percolates your reputation in the organization. But if we're silent, no one knows.
Becca Banyard: Yeah. Well, thank you for sharing that.
Rosina Racioppi: It's really not that hard. You have to be intentional, right?
I'm going to add to it. I think that the way that we work, even in this post COVID world, right, where we're working in hybrid situations, we don't often see our colleagues face to face, we need to be mindful of who needs to know about the work that I've done. Because we are not working in isolation. We need to cooperate with the people that we work with to achieve bigger goals.
And if we're keeping the work that we do and we've done silent, then there's a big component, a big contribution that's absent from the larger organization.
Becca Banyard: Thank you for sharing that. I'm gonna tuck that all away in my back pocket.
Rosina Racioppi: I'm a little passionate about it.
Becca Banyard: No, I love that.
So to wrap up, I have just a couple questions that I ask all my guests. The first is, what do you believe is the number one thing that keeps employees happy in the workplace?
Rosina Racioppi: I don't know that it's one thing. I think that people want to know that they're valued and that their contribution matters. Like the work that I've done matters to the end result.
So I think if people feel that they're valued and that means managers need to acknowledge the work that they've done, not just acknowledge it privately, but publicly in a forum. If you create that rhythm in your organization where you celebrate the successes and celebrate the people that contribute, then people feel valued.
Becca Banyard: Yeah, I love that celebration and recognition. Last question is, what do you personally need to be a successful leader?
Rosina Racioppi: Big question. I think to be a successful leader, you need to know where you're going, you have clear vision. For me personally, to have a group of individuals that we have a shared vision. So it's not just my vision, we have a shared vision and we understand how we contribute together to achieve those goals.
Becca Banyard: Amazing. Well, Rosina, it has been such a pleasure having you on the show today. Thank you so much for being with us.
Rosina Racioppi: Oh, it was my pleasure, Becca. I enjoyed our conversation. This has been lovely.
Becca Banyard: For everyone listening, thank you so much for tuning in. We'll put Rosina's contact information in the show notes if you'd like to get in touch with her.
And if you want to keep up to date with all things HR and leadership, head over to peoplemanagingpeople.com/subscribe to join our newsletter community.
And until next time, have a great day!